I'm pretty sure everything i've said here has been on-topic, poker-related, specific to this hand and the comments related to it.

I'm not the one engaging in personal attacks, name-calling, and throwing insults around.

And you all think *I* am the troll??

Where did I say that?

Are you referring to post #6? Did you read the whole thing?

Are you suggesting that we should debate what to do when we find the Qc in our hand and on the board at the same time?

Utg is an older MAWG and tends to play fairly face up from my somewhat hazy memory of him. I’d be very surprised if he had KK+ because it’s sich a trivial raise for value preflop. We could certainly see him on 77, 33 but not q7, q3, 73. He could also have AQ-QJ or Qhxh.

My live read is that I’m ahead of UTG atm but concerned of equity denial ie. the myriad of turn/river cards I’ll be dodging if I flat a cheap 65 donk and let every pr, fd and gut shot combo behind me. I’d almost rather fold than flat.

Please reconcile

Still having no reads on utg I really think this decision comes down a lot to how you view this utg line. I'm giving him 77s 33s AQo AQs KQo KQs don't know that he limp calls Q7s and I'm assuming hes not going to donk out with 65hh or 54hh if he has them here. I think I call this bet and then reevaluate after action behind me.

I agree that it is a nasty spot with all these people behind you but I don't actually expect to get a lot of callers here as mentioned before hand. I think people are calling with a heart draw and maybe a Q but we have a Q and its likely UTG has a Q as well so there are only 1.5 Queens left in the deck.

I'm calling expecting a lot of times for everyone behind me to fold or maybe 1 caller.

I don't think the type of player you describe sees a "trivial" raise pre-flop.

More often I see this type of player with KK try to see an ace-free flop before they get busy again. I actually think his line screams KK.

My post was before you gave us more read information. However, if people are calling behind with underpairs and gutshots don't you want them to call? I feel like that is more support of calling. They need around 20% equity according to my calculations to make a call correct and with 4 outs to a gutshot or 5 outs to their pair they are not getting the correct odds to call

Have enough confident in your own opinions to state them once and let them stand on their merits. Respect other opinions.

Given this even more trivial call. If he has some combos of KQs, QJs maybe even QTs along with 77 or 33 then raising here serves no purpose as it relates to him specifically. If he gets a caller he will likely play fairly face up the remainder of the hand.

I added a new clarification the second time. Totally relevant and cogent to the discussion

If you don't want this thread to go off the rails....don't be picking fights.

Petrucci is 100% on point

Whether you believe it or not your posting style is argumentative and obnoxious at a minimum and more likely smug and boarish.

Try reining in the attitude and being a bit less cocksure and you might not get flamed in EVERY SINGLE THREAD YOU POST in.

In this immediate hand I agree with you that there is really no option other than flat

Nope. I haven't said a bad word about anybody. Everything I've posted has been on-topic and relevant to the hand in question.

You're imagining a tone that's not there. I engaged with Mike because the stuff he posted was complete insanity. Go read it. I've called out all the contradictions. That shouldn't be allowed to stand unchallenged if we're really here to learn something and discuss poker.

It's funny how you all say that "we're hear to learn" and yet when someone is challenged to learn why the things they are saying are wrong..(example: we raise for value to fold out worse hands. [lol, huh??])..they get all defensive and cowardly.

"the big mean owl challenged my strat, waaaah". And yet, when I present the contradictions, explain things logically and factually.....I'm the one who "needs to learn"??? WTF???

my attitude is you can't say things like....

We are raising for information
We are not raising for information
We are raising for value
We are raising to fold out KQ

....all in back to back posts and not have me say "WTF?". If that's being cocksure....fine. I'm cocksure. Now I want Mike to tell me what the **** is going on in his head.

And go ahead and flame me. All that shows me is that you're unable to engage in poker-related discussion and defend your points in debate. If I challenge someone's advice to raise in this hand, I would expect that challenge to be met with something poker-related. Instead it's all ad-hominem attacks like "How dare you challenge me. YOu're so mean you can't possible be good at poker, and you probably have no friends"

is that really what this board is about??

Yeah, but all 5 players will call. And then some people will move from another table just to call. And I'll bet they go outside and get some people off the street just so they can flat call behind us. Why would we do that slim?

My goodness what a dream spot.

Just call though - no reason to raise an unknown.

Let him blast away with what ever random hand he has.

Never folding for 100bb unless turn is bad - heart or King

I think you are imagining a tone that doesn't exist. People can disagree about lines and strat and that's ok. This is a beginner's forum (not Mike) and you constantly ****ting on advice you disagree with grows tired.


Agreed. I have no clue why Mike wants to raise here. Doesn't make much sense to me at all and I don't think is good strat. But I don't need all the histrionics you like to include just to do that. Big deal we disagree with strat in this spot.

I mean you compared yourself to the persecution of Bill O'Reilly in another thread so maybe there is an inflated ego that translates through your posts...IDK that's just me

No they won't. If the whole table is calling this wide pre their ranges are wide-****ing open and we rate to have the best hand.

I do agree it's a **** spot. Our hand is too strong to fold, raising doesn't really accomplish anything of value so that leaves calling. It keeps the weakest part of UTG range involved in the hand without folding out hands we dominate. I would expect UTG to proceed fairly cautiously turn and river particularly given the description.

Dude....Mike is way off the rails here. And I'm not sorry for ****ting on his advice.

histrionics? This is how I talk. I swear on my kids, I'm exactly the same way in real life, and I have friends.

Pretty sure I mentioned Jesus too. Here's a fun homework exercise. Google the phrase "tongue-in-cheek"

lol, yeah, I know. I was agreeing with you, sarcastically. I thought that was obvious.

Most on-topic paragraph in this thread not posted by me.

+1

I’m going to raise here, and I like that play a lot. I’d need someone to show their work to justify a call. Specifically, what ranges do V in front and V’s behind have that playing a bloated multi-way pot is superior to playing a heads up pot.

If their was no one or one person behind then calling would be a nice and easy choice in position versus the Donk. However with several players behind, I don’t want to play versus that many players.

As to sizing, I want to minimum raise to deny equity. I think it’s pretty much impossible to navigate this hand versus multiple players and that is what you’re going to end up with if you call.

Further, V did you a favor by only betting 65. A min raise of 130 isn’t that much more than what I would have led at the pot if it was checked to me. A larger bet would make it much harder to take this line, since it would have likely forced villian to decide if he wanted to play for his stack. I want to price him into a call with his dominated jacks, like QJ or JT, which are hands that I think a regular might lead small into a 6 handed pot.

Also, the benifit of raising small is if someone behind wakes up, I can still get away pretty unscathed depending on the action.

I’m raising to isolate versus a player whose range I think, but maybe more importantly I’m also denying equity of the players behind. If you just call, the next player to call only needs 19% equity to continue. So you are pricing in 76 off, or 4c5c and I want those hands to fold.

What's wrong with a raise? the board is Q73 so I doubt someone has 2 pair. The guy that lead out probably has a weak queen or a flush draw. We are ahead of both of those hands.

If we don't raise in this hand what are we raising with?

with no reads or desc on any of the players yet to act and very little on UTG
our hand is anything but bolded.
if you can never fold TPTK in spots like this you will be owned more often than not.
a call here gives next to act 4-1 odds, next after him 5-1
we are OOP and should be happy to try and ISO UTG
then hopefully get a turn check so we can choose to bet or see a free card.
calling leave us on an island watching our raft float away

You're the one advocating the raise. Please show your work.

What ranges do you give V's behind that will result in a bloated pot? As of now they all have their loose passive junky pre-flop ranges, almost all of which whiffed this flop.

Show the math that says we're likely to get multiple callers. Everyone in this hand has like 300 combos. And there aren't many Q's left in the deck.

Why are you just assuming that you'll get a cascade of calls? Can you support it logically/mathematically?

Personally, I would enjoy it very much if those hands called.

Hands that can commit stacks.

Agree with much of this (even halfway typed up a post wherein the last caller would have proper odds with 54cc if we flat) but I think I'd raise it a bit more (say $165 total or so).

45hh is the hand I believe also even while I agree someone will have the odds with 54hh if there is another caller. That is one hand. As mentioned the ranges are still very wide here and even with 4 players the majority of the time they are gonna have so much junk that they just have to fold to a bet and a call.

I would rather give decent odds to someone behind me where I can see that a heart will be a dangerous card then raise it up right into utg who led out with what I believe to be a pretty strong range and get smashed by his 6 combos of sets

+1,000,000

This is where I am on the actual hand.

Any flush draws will just about be getting direct odds (never mind implied) against us if we flat, and probably so if we raise (they're a bit better than 2:1 against).

There's $125+65+65=255 in the pot if we flat; they're getting about 4:1 to call.

45hh or 56hh is probably never folding whether we raise or flat (nor should it, it's basically flipping).

54cc is 23.4% against our AQo with this flop; it's getting direct odds too if we call but not if we raise.

Hell, junk like 75dd is 20% and is also getting direct odds to spike their 5 outer if we flat here.