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Old 01-29-2014, 10:40 AM   #1
Lapidator
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AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Situation:

Hero sat down about an hour ago and immediately started running over the table. It helped that Hero's very first hand was QQ. Table is now limping to Hero and calling his PFR to try to flop gin, but Hero is taking down most flops with a cbet and the extremely rare 2nd barrel.

Table is joking around, loud and boisterous. Great table! The OMC to my direct right (not involved in this hand) is complaining bitterly about all the loud banter, LOL!

Other then Hero, there is one other aggressive Villain with a big stack, but he is not important to this hand.

Reads:

V1, UTG, (70bb): Older guy (50s-60s) never folding preflop. He's limp/calling with like 75% of hands pre and calling a cbet probably 25% of the time. On 2nd 100bb buyin since Hero sat down. I have not seen him show any aggression up until this point. It is not possible that he beats NLHE.

V2, LJ (120bb): Older guy (60s+) with whom Hero has played before. He probably remembers Hero. This guy is passive and prone to want to avoid close spots. He's not really a nit though, just weak-tight. I doubt very much he's a winner, but he's not terrible either.

Hero, Button, (covers): As stated above, aggro-monkey-fish-on-a-heater. Table is adjusting by just trying to flop gin and playing weak-tight. Hilariously, Hero has not yet been caught bluffing. Hero has shown huge overbets with monster hands. Winning image.

Pre Flop Action:

V1 limps UTG, 3 more limpers including V2 in the low-jack, folds to Hero who looks down at AQ and raises to 8bb.

Folds to UTG who snap calls (LOL!).

Folds to V2 who immediately raises to 40bb.

Hero thinks for about 20-30s while looking at UTG. UTG is clearly folding. Hero asks V2 how much he's playing, V2 holds up his hands and confirms just 1 $100 bill. Hero calls. UTG folds.

V2 has 80bb left. Hero covers.

Flop (90bb): A J 5

Even as the flop is being dealt, V2 is already putting money in the pot. At first I think he's all in, but then I realize he literally held 3bb back -- so V2 bets 77bb.

Hero tanks for 30s. But after thinking about it quite a bit, Hero calls.

Turn (244bb): A J 5 4

V2 checks. Hero bets 3bb. V2 calls.

Line check, please.

I'll let the flames kindle for a bit and see what folks think before I post my comments.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:47 AM   #2
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Fold pre to the 3bet. If you were to continue, jamming over the 3bet is better than flatting.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:48 AM   #3
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Fold pre.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:04 AM   #4
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Let me post a little more color about V2. He plays every day. While he is weak-tight in general, he's not just sitting there waiting for AA. He probably has been playing poker for a very long time and has seen it all.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:30 AM   #5
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Still a fold.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:54 AM   #6
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Folding to three bet. I don't think we are deep enough to really play AQo profitable against said villain.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:02 PM   #7
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

i cant see his 3! range including hands like aj or kq that would let me do anything other than fold
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:14 PM   #8
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Fold pre, anything other than that is you playing the hand differently because you're "running hot." What's Vs historical 3bet range? Is AQo ever ahead of that? You could easily get it in with pre with AK, TT+ if you think V is spewing for less than 100bb, but AQo is flipping at the very best and more often than not dominated here.

So the villain had AA?
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:23 PM   #9
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

How is V2 playing 120bb if you said he 3bet to 40bb and he has (1) $100 bill behind (50bb). Isn't he playing 90bb and has 50bb left (not 80bb) going to the flop? I'm confused.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:38 PM   #10
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If you're running over the table, I could def see someone spazz out on you eventually, which could put him on ATC, or maybe just a fairly wide 3! range, like {77+, A8s+, A10o+, 78s+, JTo+}.

I'd say fold pre if you think he's still sane, call if you think he's spazzing. Call on flop I'm ok with. Call on turn is suspect though.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:04 PM   #11
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

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Originally Posted by Below Zero View Post
How is V2 playing 120bb if you said he 3bet to 40bb and he has (1) $100 bill behind (50bb). Isn't he playing 90bb and has 50bb left (not 80bb) going to the flop? I'm confused.
He had a Cnote folded up under his stack. I had to make sure how many it was before I decided what to do.

IMO, its kind of a small angle since unsuspecting players wouldn't necessarily see the Cnote there the way he had it folded up and tucked under his stack. But I'm usually careful to look out for this.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:47 PM   #12
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
If you're running over the table, I could def see someone spazz out on you eventually, which could put him on ATC, or maybe just a fairly wide 3! range, like {77+, A8s+, A10o+, 78s+, JTo+}.

I'd say fold pre if you think he's still sane, call if you think he's spazzing. Call on flop I'm ok with. Call on turn is suspect though.
This was pretty much my thoughts.

His 3b sizing was just so out of character. Such a huge 3b. It made me think he really just wanted to push back at me, and that he really wasn't all that strong.

Also, the limp/raise from late position just doesn't make sense from this guy. Even with the aggro-monkey at the table, its a huge risk for a weak/tight player to potentially have it limp around. If he was in EP or UTG, I probably would have folded after some thought.

FWIW, I came very close to folding preflop, but his action just didn't feel right. So I consciously decided to make what I perceived to be at most a small mistake and just flat and play the flop in position with my hand which crushes his "apparently weak" range. I was fairly sure we were going to GII most of the time on the flop given SPR if I called. However, I think a 4b will fold out the majority of his range here. IMO, this was a fairly uncommon spot where a 3b appeared to have a weak range. Though to be sure, if he really did fold to my 4b, it would have been a good result (after all, I still only had AQo).

So in this spot, I think fold>call>>>>4b, but fold is only very slightly better then call.

After his 3b, I thought his range would be mostly [88-QQ, some KK combos, 1 AA combo, AX], with maybe 10% of other spazz stuff. I don't expect he's doing this with much KX type hands. But of course, I could be way wrong. Obviously, even this range has AQo in pretty tough shape.

Anyway, for good or ill, that was my thinking preflop. I'll discuss the flop action later.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:52 PM   #13
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
He had a Cnote folded up under his stack. I had to make sure how many it was before I decided what to do.

IMO, its kind of a small angle since unsuspecting players wouldn't necessarily see the Cnote there the way he had it folded up and tucked under his stack. But I'm usually careful to look out for this.
OT: It's only an angle if YOUR casino will guarantee the security of your chips and bills. I know of none that will.

All at risk, all the time. Fold and anchor your C notes.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:59 PM   #14
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

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Originally Posted by InTheDark View Post
OT: It's only an angle if YOUR casino will guarantee the security of your chips and bills. I know of none that will.

All at risk, all the time. Fold and anchor your C notes.
I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

My point was he could have had many bills there in the folded up stack. If you were not paying close attention, you might have thought he was only 150bb deep when he could have been 300bb deep with the extra bills "hidden".

Its like having a big chip buried in a dirty stack in the back of your stack.

Anyway, I don't think its a big deal.
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:59 PM   #15
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

This is kind of one of those hands where you can't really get much help from an online forum with and OP is the only one who can get a sense if V is tilting and making a play. So this is more of a "feel" or "in the moment" hand which we can't really help OP with.

About the only thing we can really help with is whether to flat or 4bet if we assume V is making a play with a wide range.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:02 PM   #16
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Easy jam or fold pre, given your reads I'd probably jam
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:34 PM   #17
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Fold pre.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:58 PM   #18
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

those saying fold pre, how are you ranging this opponent who over limps three limpers in late position?
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:34 PM   #19
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Thoughts about the turn action:

So even as the dealer was getting ready to turn the flop, V2 was already pushing in his bet. I was watching V2 and not the cards as they fell, so I'm 100% certain he was putting in money blind as it were.

This threw me off for a minute. What hands do this?

Also, he very consciously held back a few chips. It did not appear to be an oversight. No, he purposefully held back just a few chips like they were important. What is going on here?

I believe I have answers to both questions, but I'd like to see what folks think.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:55 PM   #20
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Fold pre. As played just shove turn
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:11 PM   #21
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Fold > shove > call
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:25 PM   #22
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Fold preflop. If anybody asks, say you had something like JTs and couldn't call a big raise. The limp/raise here is often JJ/TT, hands he wanted to set mine but once you raise he just wants to take down the pot. Occasionally it will be a bigger pair that was intentionally setting up a limp/raise. Sometimes he will be on AK/AQ or some spazz bluff, but this is very rare for most guys. You would have a much better sense then us if he is tilting a bit and might be spazzing with something weak. His reraise is so stupid big it's better just to fold then call or shove when your usually slightly behind and generally way behind the rest of the time.

Once you do call and hit top pair, stack sizes make you committed. That he moved in blind just makes it easier. With 90BB in pot and his stack at 80BB you couldn't fold top pair anyways unless villain was a known nit.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:45 PM   #23
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Feels like this hand was forever ago...

Results:

After the dealer runs out the river, which I don't remember now what it was but I think it was something like an offsuit 6, Hero holds his cards waiting for Villain to show.

Dealer then reminds Hero that Villain called, and Hero must show.

IMO, this is why Villain held back the little amount of chips. He knew I'd put him in, and it would mean he could disguise his hand.

Hero shows. Villain turbo mucks.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:03 PM   #24
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Re: AQo from the Button, 3b, line check

Grunch:

I would fold PF to the 3b, since this older, passive, weak-tight player just lrr 30% of his stack. It smells a lot like AK, but I've seen OMCs do this in LP with KK. However, even against a super generous range of 99-KK, AKo/AKs you're a 2:1 dog heading to a flop where the SPR will be 1...gross

Last edited by DrChesspain; 02-18-2014 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
Fold > shove > call
You're really folding the turn with top pair and nfd?
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