1/2 NL game is pretty loose and deep stacked (at least half the players have 150bb+)

I raise AQ utg+1 to $13 and get called in 5 places.

FLOP

Ad Jd Tx

I lead for $45 (thought there were 4, not 5 opponents)... 2 players call.

Caller one is 2 to my left he is a younger guy, wears shades at a 1/2 game has paid me off previously when i had tp and plays pretty loose pf, but does not 3b too much.

Caller two is the button, a guy in his late 40's that seems pretty straight forward, would not raise here with 2p imo.

Turn

4x

I have around $800, villain one has ~300-400 and button has ~200.


Whats the best line here?

I think they both have 2p's and straights in their range, possibly even JJ/TT, as well as obviously many fd's.

If you say bet, how much? How do you react to a raise from either player?

Checking the turn would probably be best to keep in part of their range you're ahead...hard to really bet for value when called in 2 spots

x/c. you have TP with gutter outs. If you bet and get raises you will prolly have to fold.

check and evaluate. If $13 is getting called 5-ways preflop, you probably need to be opening for more.

Tough hand to play OOP. The pot is getting large very quick for our TP hand. I don't think we want to bloat the pot with only TPGK. I'd check the turn as played. If one of the two bet, then , I would fold.

Hands that beat us that they lcould have: AK, AJ, AT, KQ, JT, JJ, TT.
Hands we beat: A2-A9, XdXd

Flush draws are less likely since the Ad is on the board.

I just really don't see us winning against too many hands. If I did bet and anyone raises, I fold. Do we really want to stack off a 100bb (against 2nd villian) with TPGK on this board? I wouldn't.

I think this a pretty gross spot. There just aren't enough hands that we beat especially 3 way. The fact that neither V raised flop is odd because any 2pair plus would likely raise to protect against draws. Turn is a check fold depending on how the action and bet sizing goes. I think it's way to optimistic to think we are ever ahead of both Vs. We do have outs to the nuts but our 2 pair out is likely no good since I'd imagine one of the Vs has the k high flush draw.

If the 1st V goes bet and 2nd folds I think calling is on because u said he over values hands. But if it goes bet call I fold or if it goes check bet I fold most likely. We just can't be going broke with TPGK this deep unless they are terrible.

I'm definitely more optimistic in this spot but I don't play a lot of 1/2.

Isn't this a great turn on a draw heavy flop for TPGK and a gutshot against the described players?

I'm betting for value ~$135.

It is a great turn card but its 3 way vs a station and a straight forward player. I am more worried about the V last to act. If you could assign a fees able range to both Vs that we are ahead of I could get on board for a value bet.
The station could have a # worse pairs plus gut shots but wtf is the other V calling with. If we bet 135 for value is I a bet fold?

Thanks for the feedback guys, I checked turn villain 1 led for $75, villain 2 called and I folded..

River was a blank 3.. Villain 1 shoved and villain 2 folded.. villain 1 showed Kd8d and villain 2 also said he had diamonds..

I was debating if betting turn was the right thing to do, but i still dont hate my line. I think went it goes bet/call turn it is unlikely that i am beating both hands and I will be oop for the river..

Uhm what? Bet turn. Good grief man. Slam dunk value bet.
Im betting $~140, and only folding if the deeper villian shoves and had $400+ back to start the turn with. If deeper villian only had $300 back, then im bet calling getting this in meow.

OK, so if you are value betting, what range of villian hands are you beating where you will get value? Most of their range beats us.

Betting $140 massively bloats this pot and all you have is TP "Good Kicker". We don't even have top kicker. I see no reason to do this. You barely beat anything they have. Betting $140 commits you to the pot against both villians.

Against Villian #1 the effective stack is $300 to $400 (I wish we knew if he had $300 or $400 because it makes a difference). Putting in $140 puts half his stack in if he has $300, and over a third if he has $400. Are you really going to put half the effective stack in and fold? $140 against Villain #2 is pretty much his whole stack. Betting $140 into these two and folding to a Villian #1 is pretty bad, IMHO.

There is no way I want to stack off with TPGK in this spot. At some point we need to control the size of the pot relative to the strength of our hand. TPGK, OOP on this flop is not time to get all the monies in or bet half the effective stack against a villian and fold.

I'm not even sure I'm leading the flop into this many players. Hands like this are why AQo can be trouble OOP. You've hit your hand, but will have to back down to aggression from any player at any point in this hand. There really aren't tons of draws, and most of them are 12+ outs against you. All of their value hands are better.

Small hand (for this spot), small pot. I don't want to play for stacks, and if we bet the flop we are already committed against the button, and V1 can have you in the middle. If you commit against the button you are now committed against V1 and will go broke in a spot where you are always beaten badly.

Check the flop, call anything reasonable. Revaluate on the turn. There's tons of turn cards that will turn your hand into a trivial fold, and you can save a few hundred bbs.

Thats why i said if the deeper villian had $400+ and he jams over our bet its a fold. If he has $300 then Its a bet gii.

What range of hands are you beating? Any fd, QJ, Q9, 98, KT, Ax, etc.
Theres an extremely wide range of hands you are beating. You also have to discount either villian having a better hand then you here because they didnt raise the flop on a very wet board.

Lets look at combos:

Sets: 5 combos (3 JJ and 3TT, but I discounted 1combo due to no 3bet pre )
Two pair: 11 combos (6 AJ and 6 AT and 9 JT is 21 combos, but lets discount 10 due to no flop raise)
AK: 6 combos ( 8 combos, but 2 discounted due to no 3bet pre)
KQ: 8 combos (12 combos but lets discount 4 since there was no flop raise. Notice i only discounted a third, since this is the nuts, and sometimes people really slowplay them)

So in total there are ~ 30 hand combinations currently beating you.
Against a range of Any fd, QJ, Q9, 98, KT, Ax, your probably looking at somewhere ~80 hand combos that you are beating.

I get the whole the pot control idea, but we need to play according to spr. The pot was bloated because a bunch of people called you, that doesnt change the way we should play our hand, which often rates to be the best hand as my combination analysis shows.

For example, if we had AhAc in a super deep 1-2 game and the pot was $300 due to crazy preflop action. Youve got $700 behind, villians cover, three way pot and the flop is J 9 7 ss. Are you going to start checking now because "pot control we only have an overpair?" No of course not, the spr is slightly greater than 2:1, he board is wet, we need to bet $200 flop to set up a turn $500 shove.

Thanks HLB. I love that we can have a good discussion. Although I may not 100% agree with you, there are some things in your rebuttal post that I didn't consider.

Grunch:

Bet / fold for $135.
Too many pair + diamond, pair + straight, straight + diamond draws out there too not bet for value.


Post grunch edit:
If we check, it's certainly to check call for that sizing.
Pot it ~$255 after his bet. Getting 3.5:1 I'm def calling.

c/c flop

probably c/c all the way down depending on runouts

I agree with betting and getting it in here unless stacks are a bit deeper.

I think twopair+ can be heavily discounted since we didn't get raised on the flop. This is a draw-heavy flop. They would raise because there are so many scary cards that can come off on the turn that cause them to either lose or not get paid off.

So when they call, I'm thinking pair + gutshot, flush draws, top pair. I think the first caller could have a lot of Axs in his hand, but I don't think the 2nd player over calls with those hands.

The pot is already $240 and there is only about a pot size bet left in either of their stacks. You are getting 2:1 on your money whether you check/call or shove. I think the majority of their hands check back to realize their equity since they have some showdown value to go with their draw, so I don't think you can check/ship to get max value from hands like KT, QJ, A2, etc... and flush draws probably don't think they have much fold equity on this flop given this action. I think checking is taking too much of a risk giving draws free cards. And because we didn't get raised on the flop, we don't need to fear shoving into a monster very often.


V1:



V2:




It gets more interesting if this turn is something like the 8d. I have to leave now, but something to think about...

I like stinkibus's analysis here. A principle I want to extract from this thread is that when we have potential showdown value with a medium-strength hand -- as here -- then we really don't want to over-rep our hand; and even c-betting this flop into 5 players over-reps TPGK.

Assuming level 1 or 2 thinking in our opponents, then when we are strong we want to be under-repped (not the same as slowplaying); and we want to over-rep convincingly only with our bluffing range.


-EF

Just to clarify, the OP said that Villian #1 had $300 to $400 left at the turn; not to start the hand. Villain #2 has $200 left at the turn.

Checking flop seems bad against 5 other players because there's going to be a high amount of turn cards that we're forced to check on again. And we don't widen their range any by checking in this spot so betting is the same as check/calling except we make sure it doesn't get checked through and we take control of the hand instead of letting someone in position have control. We need to bet something just to thin the field somewhat. $35 looks ok.

Also aq is probably the bottom of my value range here. If i had aj here, which i shouldnt since it was utg, i may bet flop and check call turn.