I haven't found a specific thread where players would post their hands and the thought process that led them to accurate hand reads or where they pinpoint some observation that led them to optimal play. Most threads here start with OP describing a hand of interest to him and then asking the community about optimal line or play in a certain spot. While this is an excellent practice, the information available to members of the forum is really disorganized, so one has to invest a lot of time to read it all and digest it in order to apply it to their own game.

Personally, one area where I feel I need to improve much is hand reading. After years of playing, I had observed that the biggest winners in live games where I played, were often excellent hand readers. This lead me to a conclusion that me and every other member of this sub-forum that is trying to improve would gain a lot from reading about how some people in some situations applied hand reading or adjusted they play due to some observation they made.

Aside from concrete examples, this thread welcomes descriptions of thinking patterns that players use to get those reads accurate. For example, before the flop I am asking myself these questions to narrow my opponents range, on the flop I am asking myself these questions to further do it etc. Or in this and that spot this kind of action typically means this and that etc.

As far as table observations go, sometimes it is easier to gather information than to apply it correctly. Opinions on how to act on this kind of information is what this thread is looking for.

Looking forward to our posts!

This has the chance of being a really good thread, or a really bad one. Warning to folks planning to participate, I will be modding this quite closely. No thinly disguised BBV, no flame wars, etc.

If it stays on topic and positive it could be a good thread, and I want to give it a chance to do that.

As an OP, it only makes sens that I start with a post that fits into the description of the thread,.

One loose player at my table called a pot sized river bet with medium pair against a pf opener and after the aggressor mucked, the loose player explained very loudly his thought process: ' Once you bet half pot on the flop against two players I knew that you had nothing.'
After hearing this I figured that against this kind of player a half pot bet otf as pf aggressor might induce loose calls on several streets. The other thing that I figured from his sentence was that If I was to bluff at him on the flop i had to use bigger bet size. There is a small caveat that he wouldn't apply this thinking against every player, but at least we got some help for our bet sizing against this player in the future.

Soon enough, I opened JJ from MP for 20$ (250$ stack), the loose player called from the BTN, SB called and BB called.

Flop(80$) came A J 4 rainbow, SB and BB checked and I went for a 40$ (half pot bet!).
As expected the BTN quickly called and the SB called after some consideration and BB mucked.

Turn (160$
) was a 10, that brought a flush draw as well, SB checked and I bet 90$ after giving it some thought, BTN called and SB folded. I bet the remaining 100$ before the river card was dealt and got an insta call from the BTN. He just mucked after I tabled my hand.

To be honest 1/2 pot bet OTF might be optimal even without this extra information, but maybe sometimes I would bet slightly more than that. Listening to what this player was talking about helped me to find the exact bet size to lure him in all the way.

Lesson 1 to be taken here: ' Don't explain your thought process when you make good plays. '

Lesson 2 : 'Pay attention to what people say'

P.S. I know that this is not the most enlightening hand, but since it is the most recent one that fits into this thread, I've decided to share it here.

While it's good that you are paying attention to your opponents, the amounts you bet were reasonable and allowed you to get stacks in by the river.

This is probably more "correct" and more reliably +EV than trying to soul read whether your opponent is the type of Villain who would call the flop for $40 but fold for $55.

This is a good topic, I think this aspect of the game is overlooked by many players. I think gathering accurate information is tougher than knowing how to apply it. I like to engage in table talk when in heads up pot and in call or fold mode. People give away a lot of information with their body language and the way they put their bets in. Paying attention to what people say is a great way to get info but that's not very difficult when they're are literally giving it to you. Free information is great but look to take it a step further

I like to base reads like this off of archetypes of players. I can easily level myself or give information away myself when grabbing situational reads off a player's ticks, I've found.

Examples of archetypes are old asian lady, hoody guy, bad guy in his 30s, tournament player, 2p2 reg. I like to build up a library of expectations for how these people may act in certain board runouts, or based on recent hand history, or whatever.

One simple one is tournament players can find a lot of big semibluffs if they run up a big stack and are playing on a table that is relatively short, like you would scoop up chips in a tournament.

Can you give examples of how you engage table talk in heads up pot?
And what sentence to use in which situation?

It doesn't really matter what you say, if you're in a tough spot on the river you can fish for information if your going to call or fold, See how they react and how comfortable they are, if they overbet pot could say "why so much" or if "do you want a call" but it doesn't matter what you say as long as they react. you don't have to worry about giving info on your hand so you have nothing to lose at this point so I like to try and get info even if I am unsuccessful sometimes, its a freeroll

Actually, I completely disagree with this statement. By this time most people get to this forum, they know exactly what to do if they knew what was going on. If someone is raising every hand, people know they need to open up their 3 bet range or slow play monsters.

What people don't do is gather information and retain it. Many hand histories in this forum start off with, "no (or minimal) reads." It is hard to do because the casinos do almost anything it takes to distract you. There are TVs everywhere and cocktail waitresses with short skirts and low cut tops. In addition, it is work to look at hands when you aren't involved (and even if you are). How many people do you see on their phones, listening to music, or watching movie on their iPad?

When they try to gather some data, they don't retain it in a useful format. People will hold up tables insisting they need to see the exact hand that was folded at showdown, for example. All that tells them is that if this exact situation occurs again in the next 100 million hands or so, they'll know how the villain will play it. There's no way in a live world you can retain that.

So here's what I want to find out when sittiing at a table with new people I don't know.

1. Loose or tight. The default at LLSNL is loose. A player entering 3 or more pots per orbit is loose. One or less is tight.

2. Passive or aggressive. The default is passive. Agressive players are entering a pot with a raise 2-3 times more often than calling. Aggressive players stick out like a sore thumb in LLSNL, so they aren't hard to remember.

3. How do they treat top pair? TP is where the money is won and lost in LLSNL. So knowing what they think about it is critical.

a. TP is not a folding hand. I may not want to bet it, but I want to see show down with it.

b. TP is a 3 street betting hand unless raised.

c. TP is ok, but not something I want to put a lot of money into.

Of course as you play the same player over time, you'll want a lot more information. But this is what I look for in the first hour.

its all about deductive reasoning. Consider all possibilities and discard the least likely to arrive that the only possibility that is correct. Sorta like Sherlock Holmes. It's more important to be able to pinpoint what villain doesn't have than what he does have

also it seems as if you are confusing hand reading with people reading. Hand reading narrows the amount of hands villain could have, people reading anticipates what people will do with those hands

Seems you are thinking too much pre flop. This is the most difficult street but there are so many possibilities that making a plan for them is counterproductive. You don't necessarily need to narrow their range that far pre flop. If someone is the third caller in a pot it is not really necessary or productive to narrow his range. But it is good to know if he's capable of flatting with K9o. Then we know he calls to wide pre. Also helps to know what types of hands he likes to call with. If K9o or Q8o is in his flatting range pre flop we need to triple barrell more often because it will be much harder for him to make hands that can carry 3 streets of action. But since he is the third caller we typically eliminate big pairs from his range. Also some people are more prone than others to flat with weaker aces, so that's a good thing to be aware of when we cbet ace high flops and need to be aware of our frequency of calling with them as well so we can float them profitably when our opponents c-bet

It's definitely a good idea to keep track of all the action pre so we can use that info later in the hand but I have learned that making a specific plan pre doesn't help that much

there is a lot of little tells that if you see will help. if someone behind you is preloading his fold, obvious will help to observe. if he always preloads his fold and this time he is paying full atention, then it will help to know this time he is interested.


one tell i have found to usually mean strength for a potential trap is someone acts like they ask the dealer if its on them even though, they know its on them or they like say some random **** trying to be clever. they do like an acting voice not their real voice. "oh you made it 40 huh, hmm i am all in"

when the flop comes out their eyerbrows go to the top of their head and they immediately check their cards to make sure they have the joint, is usually a good tell of strength.

doing a lot of talking when they make a big bet and see you are thinking about it is usually they are going for a fold, this doesn't mean that some people will try to talk you into a call, but people trying to get you to fold is a lot more common in my experience.

that said when people tell you what they have its can be the truth too.

when someone says you got to call look at atll the money out there or something like that, that usually means they want a call. kind of depends how tricky you think they are. if they look like they aren't that tricky and they say some thing that means please call it they are strong, they are strong. but a tricky player may be better at balancing his talk to be tricky.



if they look really comfortable like they have no cares in the world and are just relaxing and you are deciding on a big call, they got it. however, again some players are good enough to act as if they are relaxed, so obviously its hard to tell the difference in this situation.

shaking their hands or body usually means strength. some people are just spazes and you can't tell by their shaking if they have it, but if someone who seems normal shakes that is strong.

Let's not have this turn in to a tell thread. There's a whole forum for that.

+1 Venice10 in post #9

Gathering and retaining useful information on the table and specific players is the number one problem.

For me I struggle with three aspects of this process:

1) focus: knowing what to look out for (avoiding information overload or focussing on extraneous things).

2) memory: remembering the useful things I do observe. My memory sucks badly so detail like specific bet sizes etc are usually lost even if I do remember something and assign it to the correct player.

3) speed of cognition: in the heat of the moment when in a hand at a decision point I just cannot think quickly or clearly enough to sift through the available information.

For me these issues feel like I'm just bumping up against the maximum capacity of my brain. However, I reckon I can get more from the same cognitive capacity if I really rationalise and streamline my thought process and practice it a lot.

Venice10's simplifying categorisation suggestions are really helpful to me. Anyome else with similar thoughts would be much appreciated.

One final thought is how tilt intersects with this information gathering and application process. I thought I had tilt all sorted out because I can now lose massively while maintaining a jovial countenance. What I've realised recently though is that tilt isn't just avoiding throwing a tantrum - it's about maintaining my A-game information gathering and decision making processes. Tilt seems to switch my focus and twist my decisions in subtle ways so I overlook information I actually already have while also failing to gather or interpret new information correctly.

I would like to add some archetypes here:

A) Old guy, usually in his 60's +: very tight, 3 bets JJ+(often via shoving) or sometimes even narrower, limp-re-raises KK+ from EP

Some players of this archetype have one big weakness - they continue to stack off with TPTK or Overpair even when having a deep stack. Some of them are more careful. It is important to determine if this player is of the former or of the latter kind. Some cues of the former are: They confide to someone that they hate to see flops; You actually see them get it in with TPTK or OP with a lot of money behind ( If they do this once, they will do it always, since if they haven't evolved in this area by now, chances are they never will given their age)

B) Inexperienced tourney player:
Plays very aggressively preflop with his small and medium pocket pairs and big unpaired Aces (this often involves overbet shoving as a 3 bet or sometimes 4bet)
Tends to make pre flop calls with the same range of hands when faced with big preflop bets (all-ins). When they do this with AK, they are fine but they fail to realise that when they call 100bbs+ pf with 44, they are either even money or way behind.

C) Drunk, Late Night Nit:
This player comes to the table very intoxicated, very late at night and orders another beer. His 'drunk' game doesn't differ much from his 'sober' game. After all, he is just looking for two pair plus after the flop to get it in. Sometimes they are loud and talkative and in this manner they improve their image and bait some people into thinking that they are there to gamble. Don't give action to this player

I did use the word 'sometimes', when stating that it is easier to gain info than to apply it, but after reading your post I as well agree with you.

Your post (#9) is an excellent template of how we should start to gather info on unknown players.

Using Venice10's post as a starting point:

At a table of unknowns I'd sit down and focus on the players directly to my right first and try to accurately identify their strategy and leaks using the outline method Venice10 suggests. These are the guys you'll have position on most frequently so they're the most valuable to pay attention to.

With the players on my immediate left I'd take note if they are particularly stationy, particularly tight or particularly aggressive but otherwise focus my limited attention on the guys to my right.

After a few orbits I'd assess the quality of my seat. If the players to my right are over tight or tough players and/or the players to my left are massive stations or highly aggressive then I'll seek a better seat elsewhere.

Once I'm in a good seat I'd keep gathering useable information on the players to my right aiming to get an exploitative strategy in place for as many of them as possible as quickly as possible.

I won't worry too much about how easy it is to steal blinds from the guys on my left since my game so rarely folds around to late position. All I'm concerned with the guys to my left is whether or not they're going to inhibit my ability to exploit the guys to my right.

The above is a very good starting point. I would also add to pay very close attention to what players showdown and then work the hand backwards from there to see if it makes intuitive sense. This is most important when you are trying to peg someone as a "thin value" bettor or not. Basically, does a player de-polarize their value bet range on the river or not? It is something you should strive to do so that when you make a river bet, it isn't either (1) a huge hand or (2) a bluff...you can just as easily be betting one pair despite the board run out. This will make you very difficult to read/play against. Conversely, if you can peg your opponents as "thin value guy" or "not", then river play (where the bets are the largest and the decisions are tougher) will be much easier.

Also, I find that a lot of people ignore preflop when trying to range someone at a decision point. If the nuts on the board is 53o, how likely is it that this player holds that based on preflop play? If it was limped pot and he is in the BB, then it is highly likely. If it is a 3! pot pre, then not so much.

Basically the key is to be as much of a vacuum as possible. And make sure that you spend a lot of time studying the game away from the table. Over time, hand reading will become more natural and you won't find yourself in more than one or two extremely difficult spots each session (on average).

I would also recommend watching shows like Live at the Bike where you can see multiple hands at one time while the hand is going on and evaluate how players play those hands in terms of bet sizing, position, leading v check-raising, etc. If you watch enough, you will start to see a ton of patterns emerge that are relatively consistent for rec players that will help you when you are playing in your game.

Here is an example from last night's session:

I am UTG and to my right (BB) there is an ex pro live/online player, who is very chatty and often likes to explain his play after the hand. I am dealt QJs and I limp, since most hands on this table go multi-way and there is not much 3betting going on.

Everybody(!) calls and it comes to the BB (the pro I've mentioned earlier). He looks at me and says: ' This is where they make big mistakes, no way i am raising here. I can play unraised mw pots perfectly while most of them can't.' (something along those lines). He checks and the dealer proceeds to deal the flop.

Here, we already know that he is aware of the fact that any bet in this 9 handed limped pot represents a very strong range. Some players, might mix in some semibluffing hands in their range, but after the statement that he's just made, we can be pretty sure that his action here will be only if he has two pair plus.

The flop came Q 6 2dd, sb checked, BB bet the pot and I insta mucked, by the river he doubled up his stack from the girl who paid him of on three streets with Qx, while he was holding Q6 for two pair.

Had he not given that small speech prior to checking pf, I would have probably thought about calling that flop bet to see on more card. The way things came about, I immediately knew that even if I improve I might be behind, unless he has precisely 6 2. That fact combined with so many players left to act made this an easy fold.

So, this is an example where I was able to make a very accurate play, just thanks to careless speech given by one of the otherwise good players.

Not to derail but you should be making this fold pretty much every time no matter what type of Gettysburg address you heard.


I am skeptical that this thread will not turn into a matt Damon soul read thread but I’ll offer an entry.

I believe that timing tells are more prevalent than any other in LLSNL but most of us don’t know what to do with them. I am certainly in this group.

I had seen this opponent blind shove the river twice and each time was a strong hand. So when he blind shoved the river in a massive pot vs. me I SHOULD have been able to fold right? No, I ignored my read and called. My bad.

(to get this thread a little more on topic): One thing I really struggle with is applying hand reading at 1/2 vs. 2/5. I find that my hand reading at 2/5 is usually pretty good, but when I try to do it at 1/2, villains show up with cards that make absolutely no sense, especially when you have villains who limp hands like K6s and then call a PF raise.

How do you adjust your hand reading for different stakes? What do you do with people who have very poor understanding of the game in regards to position, hand strength, and bet sizing? Or are you just operating a different level of hand reading for a weak/loose 1/2 player vs. your standard 2/5 reg (but not pro)?

IMO

Being able to hand read is single most important skill in poker. Being able to give your opponents realistic ranges is hard for most. Whether it is because they lack focus, don't have the skillz, or to close minded doesn't really matter.

Keys for me are.
-showdowns obviously quickest way to narrow ranges
-Top pair and how they play value hands.
-Draws, guys generally don't balance. They either play draws aggressively or passively
-When they raise nutted hands. A lot of guys either always raise flop, or always wait till turn to raise.

I am huge on c betting percentage. I pay close attention on cbet frequency on different board textures.

Once we know tendancies, we can really closely narrower ranges by turn and river.

Biggest tip I havw for hand reading.

Throw your tendancies out the window!!!! Just because you don't play certain hands. Don't be close minded. Our villains don't think as we do. You need to really be able to take in the information and try to figure out what they are thinking. Once you can understand their thought process (right or wrong), we can give them the most realistic range possible.