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Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card?

10-24-2018 , 07:11 PM
I’ve used this once or twice. I don’t know if it’s a +ev play or not.

Say I have 9 10 of spades and flop is A 7 6 two spades

The preflop raider fires a half pot bet and I min raise with intention of checking back turn (given he checks turn) if the flush doesn’t come in.

Is this a valid strategy/ has anyone used it
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-24-2018 , 07:14 PM
I guess this will only work if he doesn’t 3 bet flop and he must check to me on turn
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-24-2018 , 07:16 PM
This is way too general a question. Poker is highly situational and less having paint-by-number cookie cutter plays in your arsenal.

One villain may interpret your min-raise as weak and come over the top with a 3bet while another will just call and give you your free card on the tun.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-24-2018 , 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
This is way too general a question. Poker is highly situational and less having paint-by-number cookie cutter plays in your arsenal.

One villain may interpret your min-raise as weak and come over the top with a 3bet while another will just call and give you your free card on the tun.
Agree. I will add that this "raise for a free card" play is about as ABC as it gets. Even very straightforward players that are not high thinkers will throw in this play and think it's real clever.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-24-2018 , 08:37 PM
It can be a good play, but when it doesn't work, it's a much more expensive mistake than the limit games where it's normally employed. Generally in NL, because you have more fold equity, you are much better off keeping up the aggression and bluffing with equity. Raise flop/bomb turn can often get people off top pair, where in limit it never will.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-24-2018 , 09:59 PM
Short answer...Yes, it works. It freezes people and them almost always call the min raise and check to you.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-24-2018 , 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphykid67
Agree. I will add that this "raise for a free card" play is about as ABC as it gets. Even very straightforward players that are not high thinkers will throw in this play and think it's real clever.
Completely disagree. This is not ABC at all. The ABC play is to call the bet (assuming the bet isnt huge) and see if you hit the draw on the turn which is what just about everyone does.

Almost nobody min raises a draw in NL in a raised pot.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 12:35 AM
I don't think the word 'free' means what you think it means. Guess it's just another victim of the internet era.

This is a good way to lower pot spr in case you do hit your draw and are particularly deep with the villain in question, but it is not free. There is also a non-zero risk of getting 3! in which case you will probably just have to fold, making this a costly mistake.

Like jB said, it's a situational trick that should be used sparingly. Can't say if it's good or bad in a vacuum.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 05:33 AM
Grunch

There are a few different ways of thinking about this: firstly in a vacuum as a free-card play going to the river from the turn, secondly in terms of balance across your entire range and various different lines.

Free card on river: will you actually get a free card? A lot has to go right for you before that occurs. You don't know how strong V is when he cbets Ace-high flop - if he 3bets you're probably going with it with your combo draw but it's a straight gamble whereas if you just called flop you could make your hand and get it in with a huge edge or you could miss your hand and still win the pot after he checks turn (thus revealing he maybe doesn't have an ace).

What if you're up against a bigger flush draw? Then when you get your free card to the river, river a flush and raise his bet you're tied on to losing your stack basically always. Would simply calling flop or raising bigger give you a better chance to avoid getting stacked by bigger flushes (V is easier to read when you just flat or he folds more of his flushdraws to a big flop raise)?

Balanced lines: what value hands are you raising on this flop and how big are you wanting to raise? What bluffs are you raising on this flop? You can't only raise combo draws as bluffs because they're too few and far between and have so much equity that it's not incorrect for villain to just fold all 1-pair hands vs your raise when your range is 2-pair+ and combo draws.

What hands are you wanting to flat this flop with? Will your flop flatting range benefit from having these type of combo draws in it?

So from the balance point of view you may either want to raise this hand bigger (to put it in with your 2-pair+ and bluffs line) or you may want to have it in your flatting line.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 08:52 AM
Just a note. This scenario is raising, not re-raising. V bet, you raise. Re-raising is someone bet, someone else raised, your raise again. Re-raising to get a free card would be awful, as almost no one has a raise/fold range post flop.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 09:37 AM
Situations that make this play more successful where I would need at least some of these to be true to use this:

1. We have the nut draw
2. V is passive/sticky and not overly aggressive
3. V is unsophisticated who may not recognize this play
4. Pot is small compared to stacks (especially this combined with #1)
5. We have a pair vs. laggy pfr (ex : A9s on K95 flop)
6. Heads up with intention of trying to take down pot on turn if we miss
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 09:51 AM
We should be raising draws with the intention of getting folds, not to get called.

I'm not sure why people would think that seeing a cheap river is best achieved by putting more money in the pot and reopening the action.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
We should be raising draws with the intention of getting folds, not to get called.

I'm not sure why people would think that seeing a cheap river is best achieved by putting more money in the pot and reopening the action.
The point is to mix this play in occasionally and play it like you would in limit. Villain bets $20 on the flop. If you call, hes going to bet $45-$50 on the turn. If you min raise to $40 he will check to you on the turn almost always so the turn only cost you $20 extra instead of $45-$50. Plus if you hit the turn, you will make more money over all most of the time because the pot is bigger.

Making a much bigger raise on the flop to try to get a fold is fine too. Its just not what OP is talking about here.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 10:16 AM
+1 to Mike in this thread. If someone posted this HH as V holding AK not a single person would suggest 3betting flop or call and lead turn against a semi-competent player.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 11:01 AM
Why wouldn't V 3bet? it's not like we are repping 2 pair+ with our minraise. This is always a draw or some weak Ax trying to find out where it's at.

Let me rephrase: in my games, there aren't a lot of villains who will allow me to see a river for just 20 more. YMMV.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
Why wouldn't V 3bet? it's not like we are repping 2 pair+ with our minraise. This is always a draw or some weak Ax trying to find out where it's at.

Let me rephrase: in my games, there aren't a lot of villains who will allow me to see a river for just 20 more. YMMV.
Try it and find out. I bet you will be surprised. It works almost every time for me. Id say I get reraised about 10% of the time.

Or just watch what happens when someone min raises a flop. They will get checked to almost every time on the turn.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote
10-25-2018 , 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
Why wouldn't V 3bet? it's not like we are repping 2 pair+ with our minraise. This is always a draw or some weak Ax trying to find out where it's at.

Let me rephrase: in my games, there aren't a lot of villains who will allow me to see a river for just 20 more. YMMV.
In your game, do you adjust by clicking back nutted hands? I know I would and just jam over the re-re-raise or turn donk.
Any value in re-raising a draw in position to get free card? Quote

      
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