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Old 06-14-2021, 07:38 AM   #1
thedude404
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Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

OK I was debating even posting this because I thought wow this is seriously embarrassing even asking this question. But the more I thought about it I decided to just go ahead and ask because this is the first time I've sat down at a live 1/2 game in 2 years so I am pretty rusty and need all the help I can get.

Table is 6 handed playing 1/2 but the drunk maniac has been briefly called away from table so for this particular hand we are 5 handed. Action with drunk maniac has been pretty furious with several hands being all in bets for stacks preflop. SB is semi-competent player who has just won at least 2 of these recent preflop all-ins , BB tight nit. UTG is new sober player. UTG+1 is competent player, probably a Vegas reg young Asian kid late 20's most competent at table since I've been sitting there for about 1.5 hours ie more competent than myself. I'm on button. I have $300 behind up $100 on session and am covered by UTG+1 and UTG also has $300.

I have been up now for around 24 hours. I just flew into Vegas and am coming up on playing my goal of 6 hours for the session. My mindset is I cant wait to get out of here and get some food and sleep and am constantly looking at the clock. Before the last table change 1 1/2 hours ago I was getting some dizzy spells sitting at the table, I am guessing from lack of sleep (cant check into hotel room until 11am so that is why I am still awake). I was playing pretty good poker at the previous table, mainly because it was pretty easy quite frankly and didnt have any really tough spots to navigate. Had been mixing in some bluffs where it made sense with mainly straightforward play, so I'm not some tight nit. But after losing a significant pot at the new table, I have noticed I am starting to nit it up with some tight folds pre flop ie just hold on till I hit the 6 hours dont do anything dumb. So yes, I probably should not have been sitting at a poker table under my current physical/mental conditions.

I look down at JJ.

Preflop action:
UTG raises to $12
UTG+1 raises to $40

What do I do?
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:49 AM   #2
Garick
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

Pretty easy fold, imo. We're not getting set-mining IOs, we're facing a "sober new player's" UTG opening range and a competent reg's iso range from UTG+1 and we are sleep deprived. Not a good time to get involved in marginal spots.
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:52 AM   #3
OvertlySexual
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

It's really not an UTG range. It's a HJ raise, 3bet by CO.

Whether to call or fold depends on how much you were raising and how much Asian kid was 3betting. In a vacuum, it's a call.
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:55 AM   #4
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

Yup. Pretty standard sigh fold.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:04 AM   #5
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

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Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
It's really not an UTG range. It's a HJ raise, 3bet by CO.

Whether to call or fold depends on how much you were raising and how much Asian kid was 3betting. In a vacuum, it's a call.
I mean yes, we're short-handed, and the reg likely adjusts his range based on that, but with the "sober new player," I need evidence before I assume he's opening a HJ range. Also, we're not in a vacuum, we are in a dizzy-spell fugue state.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:09 AM   #6
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

What hands did the SB show in these pre-flop all-ins?

I think, against a competent player, we shouldn't be folding JJ here.
I'd 4bet to around 105

Guess calling works too, but then we might get SB and UTG to come along, which makes our hand much harder to play.

JJ is still the 4th best hand pre-flop in poker.

It really depends on how competent UTG+1 (as mentioned actually CO) is here though.
If he's not 3betting enough, like almost every live player, then we can fold.

But since you mention he's a competent player, JJ should be way ahead of his 3betting range.

It also depends on the SB, if he's willing to get it in with like 66+, KJo, we could look to get it in with him.

It becomes a though spot when SB shoves and UTG+1 calls though.
I think I'd fold in that case.


Anyway, I think this decision really depends on how the game has been playing.
In most of my games I'd probably just sigh-fold as well.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:10 AM   #7
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

I expect UTG1 to have a really tight range and I quickly and quietly muck my jacks
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:14 AM   #8
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

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Originally Posted by thedude404 View Post
UTG+1 is competent player, probably a Vegas reg young Asian kid late 20's most competent at table since I've been sitting there for about 1.5 hours ie more competent than myself.
Why are we assuming this guy has a tight 3bet range?
What kind of range would you put him on?
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:23 AM   #9
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

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Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
What hands did the SB show in these pre-flop all-ins?

I think, against a competent player, we shouldn't be folding JJ here.
I'd 4bet to around 105

Guess calling works too, but then we might get SB and UTG to come along, which makes our hand much harder to play.

JJ is still the 4th best hand pre-flop in poker.

It really depends on how competent UTG+1 (as mentioned actually CO) is here though.
If he's not 3betting enough, like almost every live player, then we can fold.

But since you mention he's a competent player, JJ should be way ahead of his 3betting range.

It also depends on the SB, if he's willing to get it in with like 66+, KJo, we could look to get it in with him.

It becomes a though spot when SB shoves and UTG+1 calls though.
I think I'd fold in that case.


Anyway, I think this decision really depends on how the game has been playing.
In most of my games I'd probably just sigh-fold as well.
SB showed AQ and AK....might have been one other one but I forgot. Not that it matters in this hand but drunk maniac would open shove his $200 stack. One time he showed 25 offsuite. Another was K10 offsuite. No idea what he had against SB in the hands the SB won.

This was my first night in Vegas and have not played live in 2 years. It sure was an interesting mix of drunks/regs/tourists/people that think they are competent but arent/competent players. I guess in other words the usual. One dealer even got shoved on accident, fell out of his chair and hit his head. Eventually he couldnt deal anymore because he was too dizzy. Felt bad for the guy.
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:39 AM   #10
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

Biggest issue is you deciding to stay in poor mental shape because of some bizarre self-imposed time rule...the great thing about casinos is you can just get up and leave...it's not a friendly home game where you are expected to stay for a certain amount of time.

The minute I start looking at the clock, I cash in...it's no way to play cards.

I've folded QQ pre-flop to three bets before...but I know the players in a regular home game. Don't know if I could do that at a table full of random players.

JJ will lose a lot to even spewy players...you'll be facing at least one over card fairly often.

I fold, rack up my chips and go to bed.
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:55 AM   #11
Garick
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

And though you can't go to bed yet, you can always do something that doesn't make you more likely to lose money when you don't have mental focus, like play the mechanical horse race for quarters.
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:02 PM   #12
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

Assuming you can't get in your room no matter what (Paying $100 extra would be cheaper in the long run), you should just fold everything other than AA and shove those pf. You're in no condition to play.
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:40 PM   #13
thedude404
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

Agree to the last 3 comments. That is why I posted that info. Learning experience.

Turns out UTG had A3,UTG+1 had kk. They both got it all in as a eh hem 3 showed up on the flop for the UTG. J on turn. So my read was right in that situation obviously though I would have won the hand being results oriented yadda yadda yadda. Table broke soon after and I left with a solid $90 profit. I went to bed at 4PM PST and woke up at 2:30 AM PST. Good nights sleep!
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:45 PM   #14
thedude404
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Re: Any situation where one can fold JJ preflop?

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Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
Why are we assuming this guy has a tight 3bet range?
What kind of range would you put him on?
Because I dont think he played one single hand against the drunk maniac for starters. He kept sighing whenever the drunk would open shove $200 as if he had a good hand but not THAT good ie not good enough for a $200 call against a guy thats shown 25 open shoving $200. That's why.

If I had anything from any pair down to probably J10 maybe even down to 98 I'm looking that drunk up for $200, position appropriate.
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