Another suited gapper OOP - Page 4 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

How much you have to pay to see a flop is a pretty important factor in deciding if you'll be able to make back your investment postflop. Like, it's one entire half of the equation.

01-24-2016 , 08:50 PM

#78

mtagliaf

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 5,649

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wealth$

Also, how many books have you read on poker?? Every book I've read supports playing suited connectors and 1 gappers in deep stacked cash games. Where are you finding this "basic strategy" you speak of.

All the basic strategies I've read about written by professionals back playing these hands.

The books also talk about being positionally aware. We're ignoring our own position and villains in this hand.

01-24-2016 , 08:58 PM

#79

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beanfacekilla

Wow. Alot happened in a short time. I have read the posts, and I'm caught up.

Mike, you asked for input, and we gave it to you. Then you insisted your play was correct/ok or whatever. That's fine.

We are just trying to help. That's why we're all here, to help each other.

It seems like you are a bit results oriented. It seems like you have an ego (most poker players have them).

I'm glad the play worked out for you. But it is high variance, and risky. Once dude calls the turn bet, it's kinda unlikely he's folding the river. But, he did. A mistake by him for sure. But I don't think you knew he would fold at the time. I think you were hoping he would fold. A fold is kinda bad if he has the range you thought he had. Once he calls the turn, I don't see how he can fold the river.

I still think the call PF is loose. I still think you have "fancy play syndrome". And perhaps, you are like many others that play live. You get restless, impatient, and try to make something happen.

Position is important. You ignore that. This hand would play better with more villains, and in position (my opinion, nothing more).

If you want to do things the hard way, play OOP, HU, against an EP open, by all means, do so. But it is risky, high variance, and kinda reckless.

It seems somewhat pointless to ask for input on a hand, if you already have your mind made up you played it fine (which I believe is the case here).

Aside from that, I mean no disrespect. I don't know everything. I have quite a bit of LLSNL experience, but I am still humble. My cup isn't full already.

Hope this helps.

This play is obviously very risky and high variance but its also something I do once in a blue moon. So its a fancy play but I wouldnt say I have FPS. If I tried it too often, nobody would ever give me credit and would always call me and since its hard to make a read hand that would be a losing strategy.

I know a lot of people would rather play this hand multiway and thats fine also, but you'll never get away with this kind of play multiway. You either have to crush the flop or fold. The biggest problem I find playing it multiway is that you dont normally hit the flop super hard. You normally flop a pair or a draw. A pair isnt going to win the hand very often multiway but what I really hate is that the pot is going to be much bigger and I hate having to call a $125 flop bet to draw because the draw doesnt hit on the turn often enough and then the turn bet is usually an all in and then I have to fold. So Im sure nobody will agree but I find playing a hand like this multiway to be more high variance than playing it heads up.

I would rather call a $35 flop bet and if I dont improve I can fold most of the time. Calling $100+ flop bets on a draw is a losing strategy long term in my opinion (unless stacks are very deep and you think you will get paid off big time when you hit)

01-24-2016 , 09:01 PM

#80

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

Well obv the only reason you called preflop is so that you could run this exact play when you hit an 11+ out hand, so the questions don't really come with postflop. The questions are more like, how confident are you in your read that he doesn't stackoff with a single pair, are you deep enough to run this play, are you doing this sort of thing often enough that players adjust, etc.

I have a feeling you'll go on a run where you're overly confident in speculative reads, are over raising which makes flatting 5bbs w 97s OOP an unprofitable play, etc, and you'll have to refine and reconsider.

It's obviously not a totally absurd line that you should never run with 11 outs against a tight player, though, so I don't really know what more you want me to tell ya ...

Most intelligent response yet.

01-24-2016 , 09:03 PM

#81

Wealth$

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,162

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtagliaf

The books also talk about being positionally aware. We're ignoring our own position and villains in this hand.

We are aware of our position...

01-24-2016 , 09:07 PM

#82

Beanfacekilla

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

Theres a discussion going on right now related to my playing a suited gapper OOP. Here's another one....Live $2/$5

TAG older guy in EP raises to $25. Ive played with him a fair amount. He doesnt mess around and can find a fold with TPTK or an overpair. I call heads up in the blind with 9s7s.

Pot $50. Flop Kh7d6s. I check/ call $35.

Pot $120. Turn 8c. I check. He bets $90. I check raise to $215. Obviously this hand is easier to play in position, but this check raise is a very strong move on this board against AK or AA. If I play 97s here I could easily have 87, 76 or any number of other hands and I think he knows this. He doesnt have anything like 87s in his range. I think he folds AK or AA most of the time but could have 99. I dont see him having anything else. He thinks for a while can calls.

Pot $550. River 2d. I shove my last $275ish. He covers me.

Thoughts?

Please refer to the Bolded portions of text from the OP. I count $525(ish).

edit 110 bigs.

A little over 100 bigs? 105 bigs (ish) effective stack size. Is this deep stacked? It is a $2/5 game. Deep stacked IMO is 200 bigs+. H is only offered another -Edit 20x - implied odds if he manages to stack V postflop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wealth$

Also, how many books have you read on poker?? Every book I've read supports playing suited connectors and 1 gappers in deep stacked cash games. Where are you finding this "basic strategy" you speak of.

All the basic strategies I've read about written by professionals back playing these hands.

I have read a few. I like to read.

Last edited by Beanfacekilla; 01-24-2016 at 09:29 PM.

01-24-2016 , 09:09 PM

#83

surviva316

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,335

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

It's obviously not a totally absurd line that you should never run with 11 outs against a tight player, though, so I don't really know what more you want me to tell ya ...

Scratch that, apparently several ITT are accusing OP of FPS for x/r'ing with 13 outs (I miscounted) OTT. WTF is going on here? Downvotes for everyone. 1 star thread.

I don't know if x/r is the best play given the awkward stack sizes, and we'd have to trust OP that villain plays scared money with the sort of hands that are likely to bet twice, etcetcetc, but running a bluff with 13 outs is now considered FPS? There really exist winners who don't have this in their standard playbook?!?!

01-24-2016 , 09:16 PM

#84

Beanfacekilla

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStarr

I think all of us here pick spots, in the moment, to get fancy. I can totally see where you're coming from.

I might choose a different approach though. I just really feel much more comfortable IP.

01-24-2016 , 09:55 PM

#85

Dutchstreetfish

adept

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 832

Quote:

Originally Posted by SqredII

I play a ton of suited connectors and gappers and kind of thought it was one of the cornerstones of playing good deepstack no limit. I just use a default fall back rule I learned on Bart Hanson's site. The bet call (preflop) needs to be getting 20 to 1 for a connector and 30 to 1 for a gapper against a legitimate opening range. Of course, having position is great, but I will make exceptions depending on the most likely mistakes the preflop raiser tends to make. I also skew the price I need up or down if I have a good handle on the way the raiser plays.

But in typical reg infested games where most guys are looking for reasons to fold, I think avoiding this spot is leaving a lot of money on the table.

Couple things in this post jump at me. 1) if you're going by a rule of thumb seeking IO of 30x for a gapper, note that the open was to $25 and effective stacks are $550. You'd need eff stacks of $750 for that to apply. Also, that suggestion from Hanson includes having position. 2) "having position is great." Position is not just a nice side benefit. It is a defining aspect of what makes some hands pos EV or neg EV in different situations.

But, the biggest thing that hit me here: "typical reg fest where most guys are looking for reasons to fold."

What games are you playing in? I'm not playing in those games. I'm playing in games where they call four barrels including the river with 2nd pair on a QT732r board bc "I put you on AK."

There are individual players who are looking for reasons to fold but they are the exception. In this particular spot, OP seems to have identified one and exploited that player.

The vast majority of opponents I have faced (and I log 600-700 hours live/year) are calling the river in this spot with AA and AK. Every time.
It's possible that V didn't have a top pair hand, maybe V had a weird hand that missed or QQ. But shipping your stack trying to get average LLSNL players to fold top pair or an over pair is lighting money on fire.

With eff stacks around 100bb, value betting is a more powerful weapon than bluffing.

And, fold pre. Calling suited one gappers, HU, is neg EV.

01-24-2016 , 10:08 PM

#86

SqredII

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,306

I dont think he mentioned stack sizes in the OP. I agree we need about 30x. I would just instamuck at 100bb, but knowing me I probably call if it is 230 bb, cause im a degen. but for sure I am taking a 20$ shot at a 750 stack if I think he is sticky.

You seem to playing in some tough games. Vegas has been really nitty lately.

01-24-2016 , 10:35 PM

#87

sewktbk

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wealth$

So you are saying calling AI's with A high is +EV in the long run?? That's a really light call. And I think the argument can be made that the A high call was -EV as well. So in this one situation the guy made the +EV call. But how many times out of 100 will an A high call work? Are you not being results oriented by looking at this one hand? If this situation comes up 100+ times with the same players and we call AI's with A high on low flops would this really be +EV??

im saying that regardless wether you have A-high or a set, if your read is that you are ahead and that you trust that read, you should call. If you dont, then having reads is useless.