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Old 06-06-2013, 06:18 PM   #26
Avaritia
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by IbelieveinChipKelly View Post
Someone asked why I only bet $10 on the river and it was designed to entice a bluff raise. FPS. I suffer from it.
Pick your spots appropriately. Inducing here is pretty bad, it's a limped pot that has been checked to the river.

We induce into known aggression.

i.e., Asian tilting spewtard opens $12 utg. $300 effective. You call in the bb with 55.

Flop AQ5.

You can lead small here to induce bc you know you're leading weak into what is 100% guaranteed unbridled aggression.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:32 PM   #27
ibelieveyouoweme$80k
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Pick your spots appropriately. Inducing here is pretty bad, it's a limped pot that has been checked to the river.

We induce into known aggression.

i.e., Asian tilting spewtard opens $12 utg. $300 effective. You call in the bb with 55.

Flop AQ5.

You can lead small here to induce bc you know you're leading weak into what is 100% guaranteed unbridled aggression.
It was a raised pot; albeit small, but still a raise.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:26 PM   #28
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

Grunch

I think the only way you get maximum value is if you flop the OESD instead of turning it. You have to remember that if ANYONE bets ANYTHING on this flop you are pretty much toast, so the fact that you got ANY value after this flop I would count as a win.

I wouldn't advocate trying to build a pot by betting the turn against 4 or 5 opponents with just a draw although in retrospect it would've helped build a pot when you ended up with the nuts (however, if you bet OTT and get raised you'll be kicking yourself) but that's too results oriented.

Ideally someone else would put in a turn bet with a few callers and you could call on the draw, then once you hit the nuts OTR you can potentially realize more value or get someone stuck with just a 5-high straight.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:55 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ProFeSSa D View Post
Grunch

I think the only way you get maximum value is if you flop the OESD instead of turning it. You have to remember that if ANYONE bets ANYTHING on this flop you are pretty much toast, so the fact that you got ANY value after this flop I would count as a win.

I wouldn't advocate trying to build a pot by betting the turn against 4 or 5 opponents with just a draw although in retrospect it would've helped build a pot when you ended up with the nuts (however, if you bet OTT and get raised you'll be kicking yourself) but that's too results oriented.

Ideally someone else would put in a turn bet with a few callers and you could call on the draw, then once you hit the nuts OTR you can potentially realize more value or get someone stuck with just a 5-high straight.
You pretty much described how 99% of average players think in these spots...
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:19 PM   #30
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Pick your spots appropriately. Inducing here is pretty bad, it's a limped pot that has been checked to the river.

We induce into known aggression.

i.e., Asian tilting spewtard opens $12 utg. $300 effective. You call in the bb with 55.

Flop AQ5.

You can lead small here to induce bc you know you're leading weak into what is 100% guaranteed unbridled aggression.
very good point.

When I try to induce, its usually something ridiculous like 1/10th the pot size Oh man, spewtards hate that. They take it as a test of their manhood and there is no way they are letting you take down a $50 or $100 pot with a $5 - $10 bet they will show you who is boss!!!!!

In this case, even though there was a preflop raise, action checked through twice, so inducing is not the way to go here. Avarita is right, we try to induce in situations were villain has displayed tons of aggression and is a known aggro... Otherwise, we are just best playing it straight forward or in this case, going for the prison rape
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:59 AM   #31
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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All in favor of prison raping our villains by open overbet shoving river please raise your hand

Spoiler:


This shove has been dgiharris Prison Rape Approved
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:12 AM   #32
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

jamming 410 is pretty bad but can go higher than 110.f
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:54 AM   #33
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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jamming 410 is pretty bad but can go higher than 110.f
You believe the typical LLSNL player is going to fold a 4 to our overbet shove???
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:00 PM   #34
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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You believe the typical LLSNL player is going to fold a 4 to our overbet shove???
Must be nice to play against complete 'tards often enough that you think people would call $400 overshove after committing only $30.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:18 AM   #35
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Must be nice to play against complete 'tards often enough that you think people would call $400 overshove after committing only $30.
Yes, it is nice actually.

CA, NM, AZ, and Vegas are places I have played in which the majority of LLSNL players would make this call.

sorry if in your poker universe players are "too good" to make that call.

but this is a bit of a Catch-22. If you would not shove in this spot then how do you know it wouldn't work against your typical villains?

Serious question. Since I routinely overbet shove in spots like this doesn't it stand to reason that I have a better sense of whether this shove works or not vs someone who NEVER overbet shoves in spots like this?

This situation is why I created my Donkaliscious thread. These sorts of idiotic spots come up all the time. You just have to open your eyes and be open minded. And the truth is, Fish just don't fold in these spots regardless of the bet. You say all-in and they just auto-call because they have a straight, and a straight is the near nuts, so they "have to call". And then, after you show the nuts and you are raking in the pot, they will still shrug and say, "Well, I had the straight, I had to call..."

I see this happen in one form or the other almost every single day...
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Old 06-08-2013, 02:48 AM   #36
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

I feel $10 river to induce bluff raise is bad. Look like there are a lot of hands (weak Ax, 9x) will call $30 on the river and a 4 will definitely raise you.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:42 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
This situation is why I created my Donkaliscious thread. These sorts of idiotic spots come up all the time. You just have to open your eyes and be open minded. And the truth is, Fish just don't fold in these spots regardless of the bet. You say all-in and they just auto-call because they have a straight, and a straight is the near nuts, so they "have to call". And then, after you show the nuts and you are raking in the pot, they will still shrug and say, "Well, I had the straight, I had to call..."

I see this happen in one form or the other almost every single day...
Its funny but I leaned bet/3b shove here. Hoping to get called by 2p or w/e and hoping a 4 raises but open shoving is interesting because vil has to only make 1 mistake where as bet/3b requires v to make 2 mistakes. Open shoving of course prevents us from getting value from 2p and sets but prob more than made up for by not giving v 2 chances to think about correctly folding a 4.
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:15 AM   #38
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
In general, I would propose that you shove the nuts 10% of the time regardless of pot size. As time progresses, you will get better at figuring out which situations are ripe for overbet shoving. And this situation is one of them. Doesn't matter if the pot was $10, just overbet shove it for stacks and you will still get snapped called by random fours. Trust me on this
l
Did you mean "shove the nuts 10%" or "shove the nuts 100%"?
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:53 AM   #39
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
Yes, it is nice actually.

CA, NM, AZ, and Vegas are places I have played in which the majority of LLSNL players would make this call.

sorry if in your poker universe players are "too good" to make that call.

but this is a bit of a Catch-22. If you would not shove in this spot then how do you know it wouldn't work against your typical villains?

Serious question. Since I routinely overbet shove in spots like this doesn't it stand to reason that I have a better sense of whether this shove works or not vs someone who NEVER overbet shoves in spots like this?

This situation is why I created my Donkaliscious thread. These sorts of idiotic spots come up all the time. You just have to open your eyes and be open minded. And the truth is, Fish just don't fold in these spots regardless of the bet. You say all-in and they just auto-call because they have a straight, and a straight is the near nuts, so they "have to call". And then, after you show the nuts and you are raking in the pot, they will still shrug and say, "Well, I had the straight, I had to call..."

I see this happen in one form or the other almost every single day...

I have made som thinking on this topic the last day, and i have to say one thing: this overbet play has to be particular lethal against a player who has been coolered a couple of times short time before you overbet him. Or lost a couple of big pots in one way or another. The player will often be in a state of mind that says "i cant be beat again can i?" "I have xxx so i just have to call, he might be bullying me".

The way i am thinking can actually be seen as a similar situation in high stakes poker season 2: Where Negreanu gets coolered with having the nutz on the flop and being sucked out on a sick amount of times. Negreanu is slowly getting in a state of mind where he thinks people is making moves on him (try to bluff him), and calls everytime whith the second best hand in huge pots.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:54 AM   #40
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Did you mean "shove the nuts 10%" or "shove the nuts 100%"?
I meant 10% (ten) of the time. About a year ago I started overbet shoving the nuts regardless of pot size and got mixed results. Then I limited myself to a random 10% of the time and got much better results. Then I started to really look at situations to determine which were ripe for overbet shoving the nuts and I got better about identifying the right spots to overbet shove the nuts.

So basically, I'm saying that if you randomly overbet shove the nuts 10% of the time (regardless of pot size) you will notice that it will have an interesting impact on your game. You will notice that you will get some interesting calls you would have NEVER anticipated getting. Then, after a while you will start to see a pattern for "when" is the best time to overbet shove and you will then eventually be able to better select times to overbet shove...

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Originally Posted by Gilmour View Post
I have made som thinking on this topic the last day, and i have to say one thing: this overbet play has to be particular lethal against a player who has been coolered a couple of times short time before you overbet him. Or lost a couple of big pots in one way or another. The player will often be in a state of mind that says "i cant be beat again can i?" "I have xxx so i just have to call, he might be bullying me".

The way i am thinking can actually be seen as a similar situation in high stakes poker season 2: Where Negreanu gets coolered with having the nutz on the flop and being sucked out on a sick amount of times. Negreanu is slowly getting in a state of mind where he thinks people is making moves on him (try to bluff him), and calls everytime whith the second best hand in huge pots.
Dude, you are seriously overthinking this issue and giving fish way too much credit.

Yes, if a fish is getting coolered he can be tilty and be more prone to call. But that isn't really my argument.

My argument is simply that the majority of fish are just not thinking beyond Level 1. They will auto-call without even considering the math. In their mind, it just doesn't matter that the pot is $45 and the shove is $400. All they know is they have a straight, straight is the near nuts, straight is a great hand, and thus they must call.

I sense that you are just biased by your own views of the game and you have lost the ability to think like a fish or Level 1 player.

The more I shove in spots like this, the more surprised I am at the random crap that calls.

I've shoved in this spot and have gotten THREE CALLERS, each with a 4. the thought that "someone" could have the nuts and that they are calling merely to chop just doesn't cross their minds. You'd think the 3rd caller would think, "Man, at best 2 of these players has to have a 4 and so I'm really calling $400 to chop 3 ways and there is a chance someone has the 64 and if they do I lose so its best to fold..."

no. They just don't think like that. They will say, "Man, guess we all have a four, guess we are chopping" and they will call just to chop knowing everyone has a four...

you need to read my Donkaliscious thread. Seriously. You need to get a feel for how fish think and the mistakes fish make and why they make them. I just get the sense you are too biased by how you perceive the game...
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:05 PM   #41
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
Its funny but I leaned bet/3b shove here. Hoping to get called by 2p or w/e and hoping a 4 raises but open shoving is interesting because vil has to only make 1 mistake where as bet/3b requires v to make 2 mistakes. Open shoving of course prevents us from getting value from 2p and sets but prob more than made up for by not giving v 2 chances to think about correctly folding a 4.
the thing is, the way the hand developed, sets really aren't in our villains ranges so we can just discount those. 2p hands are also not really in their ranges but even if they are, the frequency of those hands calling any significant bet is low. I mean, pot checks through all the way to the river, pot is $45, sure we can get them to call a 10, 20, maybe a $30 bet. However, a 4 may make that same call just assuming its a chop. But if we shove, a 4 still makes the same call assuming its a chop.

Another component to this is to look at your overall game. Ask yourself, how often do you overbet shove? Not just when you have the nuts, how often are you overbet shoving for value? How often are you overbet shoving as a bluff?

What does it do for your game if you overbet shove a Level 2 or Level 3 player and stack them with the nuts and then are in a spot where you miss your hand but then overbet shove river?

To be clear, I'm not advocating that we just start overbet shoving like a madman, but rather I'm just trying to get everyone to see the bigger picture, and that is how overbet shoving can augment our games and give us more value with wouldn't have realized or add a dimension to our game that our villains do not have...
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:11 PM   #42
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Re: Another hand of a missed opportunity to shove?

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
I meant 10% (ten) of the time. About a year ago I started overbet shoving the nuts regardless of pot size and got mixed results. Then I limited myself to a random 10% of the time and got much better results. Then I started to really look at situations to determine which were ripe for overbet shoving the nuts and I got better about identifying the right spots to overbet shove the nuts.

So basically, I'm saying that if you randomly overbet shove the nuts 10% of the time (regardless of pot size) you will notice that it will have an interesting impact on your game. You will notice that you will get some interesting calls you would have NEVER anticipated getting. Then, after a while you will start to see a pattern for "when" is the best time to overbet shove and you will then eventually be able to better select times to overbet shove...



Dude, you are seriously overthinking this issue and giving fish way too much credit.

Yes, if a fish is getting coolered he can be tilty and be more prone to call. But that isn't really my argument.

My argument is simply that the majority of fish are just not thinking beyond Level 1. They will auto-call without even considering the math. In their mind, it just doesn't matter that the pot is $45 and the shove is $400. All they know is they have a straight, straight is the near nuts, straight is a great hand, and thus they must call.

I sense that you are just biased by your own views of the game and you have lost the ability to think like a fish or Level 1 player.

The more I shove in spots like this, the more surprised I am at the random crap that calls.

I've shoved in this spot and have gotten THREE CALLERS, each with a 4. the thought that "someone" could have the nuts and that they are calling merely to chop just doesn't cross their minds. You'd think the 3rd caller would think, "Man, at best 2 of these players has to have a 4 and so I'm really calling $400 to chop 3 ways and there is a chance someone has the 64 and if they do I lose so its best to fold..."

no. They just don't think like that. They will say, "Man, guess we all have a four, guess we are chopping" and they will call just to chop knowing everyone has a four...

you need to read my Donkaliscious thread. Seriously. You need to get a feel for how fish think and the mistakes fish make and why they make them. I just get the sense you are too biased by how you perceive the game...


I dont think i am biased Dgiharris. In the game i usually play (home game) its not a table full of donks or fish. The game often plays very very deep through the night and its several good decent players there, wich have played live poker for years and years. The majority is not level 1 players who calls 300 BB river shove into a 40 BB pot. Yes i on some ocassions have spewtards in my game, and players i will describe as fish. But only level 1 players its not the case in my game. I have to think beyond level 1 to get a better winrate at the game, thats why i am doing it. Maybe i should game select better, but i really like the home games and the social aspect of playing with friends and people i know. Sometimes i play in 1/2 games at casinos also, and i agree that the amount of fish/level 1 players there is unbeliveable.

My thinking was just a continuation of your thoughts about overbetting: and that i think it will work even better when a players is in a state of mind were he lost a couple of big pots and assume people is gonna make moves on them.

Last edited by Gilmour; 06-08-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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