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Old 04-12-2014, 12:57 AM   #1
ryno19
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Another fine mess I got myself into

1/3NL

Hero (1250) C/O showing up with monsters and betting my way out of most tough spots . One lady even said at one point, "I'm not calling you, you always have it"

V1(~400) UTG fairly competent regular, early 20's. definitely think he is still in the process of being coached, see him a lot and I've seen him at showdown with some questionable hands, but still better than most.

V2(~450) MP drunk spewtard. Been waiting to catch him in a good spot all night. Have seen him raise and 3b with garbage all night ... 10 8o, J7o, the list goes on

V1 raise to $12 (kinda weak for this table as most raises have been 15-18)
V2 3b to $38
Hero AQdd calls
V1 calls
Pot $115

Flop (115)
Qs Jc 9s
V1 leads out for $42 (320)
V2 snap fold
Hero thinking that was an awfully small bet for this pot, floats to see what happens on turn... Not quite sure where I'm at at this point, the small bet really confused me, but getting roughly 4-1 with TPTK kinda sucked me in. I thought no way he has this straight, he isn't calling $38 with K10 or 10 8, also thinking he has been at this table long enough to know V2's antics, so any 99+ would have 4b in this instance.

Turn (200)
4h
V1 leads out $160 (160)

* I'm thinking this bet is really odd considering the light bet on the flop. It feels like now he is trying to push me out even though it is only a ~75% bet. I tank for a long time, watching V, I don't think I've ever tanked this long, I am really having a hard time putting this guy on anything. A10ss AJss and AQ are the hands that keep entering my mind, maybe QJ or KQ, but very unlikely....I really am having a hard time putting him on a set here as explained above. And he never has a straight here.

Finally I look at him and say "I think we have the same hand here" I have never seen someone get so uncomfortable so fast. His chest was literally beating like crazy and he was completely uncomfortable.

Hero?
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:59 AM   #2
ryno19
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Hindsight... Wish I would have raised to $120 on flop to see where I was
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:03 AM   #3
iraisetoomuch
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

My first instinct here is to 4bet small for value and isolation against V2 if he's 3betting with trash like you say. He's like to call a small 4bet, we box everyone else out, and we are IP. Seems like a win all around. I'd make it $65 or so.

As played, I'm not in love with our hand.
My gut says shove or fold the turn, but I don't know what he best play is.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:16 AM   #4
eldiesel
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

V1 leads into 2 guys on that wet of a flop, it's not a bluff, I really don't see him doing it with worse than AQ, you're tying some of the time but not that often.

I wouldn't figure the odds otf, especially with a made hand, we're not drawing. I always have the pot amount in my head and I see what % of the pot V bets but it's for sizing tells, 4:1 means very little there.

I'd definitely fold ott but seriously consider it otf. V called an extra $26 pf to the 3-bet. And then leads. Is he setting his own price with the nfd? I'd think he'd c/c because leading risks a raise and a terrible spot for him. It looks like 99 to me, he mined pre and bet out to make sure money is going in on this wet board where he is ahead but vulnerable.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:20 AM   #5
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

And the heavy breathing is a sign of strength.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:27 AM   #6
ryno19
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Really? Every time I breathe heavy it's because I'm completely FOS. When I have it I am calm as can be
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:53 AM   #7
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

That's rare, it's usually the other way around. But the other input I suggested is more important.
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:20 AM   #8
tightywhity
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Have you seen v1 double barrel before? Has he bluffed before? You mentioned he's a competent player so can he really have worse than AQ here? Also, if you seem to always have a hand would he tighten up a bit against you?
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:47 AM   #9
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Purely going on what you've said re V1 and betsize tells, my limited experience would suggest this is far more often a bet for value OTT, which means 2P+.

I think given the betsize OTF we have to call as villain could be trying to get to a cheap showdown with a weak TP, or at least 'see a turn card', but all other hands he plays this way have us crushed.

Small bet flop then bomb turn is usually a sign of strength (nutted hands) in the games I play in.

I don't think you can rule out KTs/J9s/JJ/99, maybe even QQ depending how nitty he is preflop and how he views hero (thinking he may have been trying to induce the 3bet from v2 but hero's call throws him off his plans)
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:21 PM   #10
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Grunch::

When you want to play against a drunk spew tard calling here is always pretty bad because v1 is almost always ALWAYS going to come in and may even (if he's smart) squeeze you out and ISO v2.

You deff needed to 4b pre here. You deep w pos. and your range crushes his.

As played this is a weird spot for sure
AA KK are out of the question
QQ unlikely because of board and your hand.

Sets would play this hand exactly like this.
(You can't float with a pair) btw. This board is scary against you for the V.
His flop bet was to entice v2 to spaz.

I'm feeling ok with folding here and looking for better spots against the drunk v2.

No shame in folding here. IMO
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:45 PM   #11
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Not such a big mess yet, fold.
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:57 PM   #12
Jihad2
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

I'm folding pf. As played I call flop (raising to "see where you're at" is widely considered terrible) and fold turn.
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:01 PM   #13
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

If he's that noticeably uncomfortable when you say that, trust your read and ship it in. Without your read it's an easy fold tho
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:04 PM   #14
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
And the heavy breathing is a sign of strength.
+1
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:15 PM   #15
SunChips
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

I'm icy calm when I bet the nuts and icy calm when I bluff. It's weird, but when I have a hand where my hand beats their range (but not a lock) and i'm OOP or a hand that might be behind but has great equity OOP, that's when my heart will start beating faster. If I had a hand like 10Q here, my heart would start pumping a bit. I'd expect to see a hand that's not the nuts here, but strong. Bottom of range: 10Q, AsJs, KsJs. Top of range: QQ.

De-rail: This is why I set up tiny sprs and giant sprs when out of position. I'll only play midrange SPR when im in position.

Last edited by SunChips; 04-12-2014 at 03:16 PM. Reason: fold.
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:44 PM   #16
daniel9861
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

I would 4bet pre to $110 and sigh call if V2 ships.

On the flop I think raising for value and flatting are close due to his bet size.

On the turn I'd probably gii since the read on him is that he can show up with questionable hands at showdown.
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:42 PM   #17
AncyentMarinere
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Yeah this is a darn tough spot. I'm fine with flat calling pre, you could 4bet, to me that's over playing it most of the time, but could have been a fine move here.

AS played... The combination of small donk lead into two players showing reasonable strength on a wet high-card board, followed by a pretty sizable follow through bet on the turn, setting up for a pot size river bet is certainly intimidating, it does show a hell of a lot of strength.

I think I would range him something along {AQ,AsJs,KQs,JsTs,99,AsTs}
I just don't seem him calling the 3bet with KT, or TT+... KT he should drop, and TT+ he should 4-bet.

Still not really doing fantastic against this range, I would be feeling pretty sick about it.

In actual play I might very well call this down, but I think that is probably a bad move. Folding is the safest move at this point, only if I could include more Qx and Jx hands in his range would I shove/call, but I'm just not seeing them.
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:23 PM   #18
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
Hindsight... Wish I would have raised to $120 on flop to see where I was
Your game will improve if you never think this again.

As played, I prefer the 4 bet to isolate pf to the call. We want to isolate against V2 and the small raise is often something like 77-TT to someone who is learning the game. He's been taught not to limp in with those, but isn't ready to make them look like AA. I think you get V1 to fold most of the time.

As played, I'd say he has bottom set or 2 pair on the flop. He doesn't want it to check around, so he wants to bet something, but not too much to chase everyone off. Once you call, he's more confident that he's ahead. I'm not good enough to fold the flop, but the turn is pretty easy to fold.
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
1/3NL

Hero (1250) C/O showing up with monsters and betting my way out of most tough spots . One lady even said at one point, "I'm not calling you, you always have it"

V1(~400) UTG fairly competent regular, early 20's. definitely think he is still in the process of being coached, see him a lot and I've seen him at showdown with some questionable hands, but still better than most.

V2(~450) MP drunk spewtard. Been waiting to catch him in a good spot all night. Have seen him raise and 3b with garbage all night ... 10 8o, J7o, the list goes on

V1 raise to $12 (kinda weak for this table as most raises have been 15-18)
V2 3b to $38
Hero AQdd calls
V1 calls
Pot $115

Flop (115)
Qs Jc 9s
V1 leads out for $42 (320)
V2 snap fold
Hero thinking that was an awfully small bet for this pot, floats to see what happens on turn... Not quite sure where I'm at at this point, the small bet really confused me, but getting roughly 4-1 with TPTK kinda sucked me in. I thought no way he has this straight, he isn't calling $38 with K10 or 10 8, also thinking he has been at this table long enough to know V2's antics, so any 99+ would have 4b in this instance.

Turn (200)
4h
V1 leads out $160 (160)

* I'm thinking this bet is really odd considering the light bet on the flop. It feels like now he is trying to push me out even though it is only a ~75% bet. I tank for a long time, watching V, I don't think I've ever tanked this long, I am really having a hard time putting this guy on anything. A10ss AJss and AQ are the hands that keep entering my mind, maybe QJ or KQ, but very unlikely....I really am having a hard time putting him on a set here as explained above. And he never has a straight here.

Finally I look at him and say "I think we have the same hand here" I have never seen someone get so uncomfortable so fast. His chest was literally beating like crazy and he was completely uncomfortable.

Hero?
V2's range {AsKs, AsJs, AQo, 99-JJ, KQ, QJ}

V1 was the initial raiser and called a 3bet. OK. Then he donks in to V2 (drunk spew) and Hero who's been "running hot", for less than half the pot. I agree with what someone said above that he was looking for V2 to spazz out.

Then you tank and call. V1 then proceeds to bet half his stack on a card that I can't put in his range. (A4spades is unlikely, doubt he's opening with 44 for $12 and calling a 3bet with either.)

Then you tank some more and V2 comes off as super uncomfortable when you say something. My guess is V2 has a strong hand here...just not the nuts. And by your comment he might be thinking "oh ****, he has Teh Nutz and is about to raise me for all my chips." since you've been running over the table. I do think he wants a fold here but I think he has you beat.

I would narrow his range down to JJ, 99, QJ. It's hard to put him on QQ but there's a small chance he has that.

If he doesn't have you beat he has AsKs, AsJs, or AQ. Maybe As10s.

Idk. Tough spot. Could go either way honestly. If he has any of the above hands he's not in terrible shape even when he's behind. Probably a good time to find the fold button because you're either crushed or a small favorite.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:10 PM   #20
alienbogey
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

My impression, from here at my keyboard, is that the uncomfortable reaction by V is a sign of weakness. My guess is that he's FoS or on a non-nut flush draw.

When Hero said, "I think we have the same hand" he's basically telling V that he, Hero, has a hand—and V got uncomfortable with that. Hero has been showing down with the goods, and now has told V he has more of the same, and V seems like he doesn't like the news.

Why wouldn't he like it? Top pair medium kicker, flush draw worried about nut flush draw, a spazz bluff or ___?

Regardless of the tell, SPR on the flop was less than 4 and Hero flopped top pair top kicker. The board is wet, but shove and find out what the tell means.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:39 AM   #21
ryno19
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Glad at least a few agreed with my decision... I shoved

Lost to 99
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:21 AM   #22
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
V2(~450) MP drunk spewtard. Been waiting to catch him in a good spot all night. Have seen him raise and 3b with garbage all night ... 10 8o, J7o, the list goes on

...

V2 3b to $38
...
Hero AQdd calls
Why?

If we've been watching him 3b with garbage, we have to flop good or play creative post. Unless we feel that he is folding to our 4b, which based on the description I highly suspect, then we should take the initiative and 4b. Flatting pre basically guarantees that V1 comes along, which I am not sure I love.

What's our plan when we completely whiff and he cbets? Are we going to play creative?
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:46 PM   #23
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Re: Another fine mess I got myself into

Grunch: fun fun.

Pre: I much prefer to 4 bet. You want to be heads up vs. drooler. V1 will only come along with a big hand which he'll likely 5 bet giving you an easy fold. Especially considering your sizing read. This is where the hand was lost.

Flop: you hit decently and still don't know what to do. This tells me you didn't really have a plan with your preflop call. When v1 Dinka into 2 players I'm not at all happy. Since its a small amount I may call this bet and see what he does on the turn but my bags are packed. I would consider folding for sure.

Turn: see ya. Spent too much already and butchered the hand. Folding now.

ETA: why did you say anything at all? That was stupid.

His line says way more than his breathing. His line screamed set because you allowed it to be part of his preflop range then ignored the "set" bubble floating above his head post flop. Classic overplay of tptk in this thread. No shame OP. just a good lesson hopefully.

Last edited by spikeraw22; 04-13-2014 at 05:53 PM.
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