live at commerce.

hero: 3800
villian: 4000+

villian is a young pro, only 4betted once within 3-4 hours, lag style, tends to read pretty well.

villian from mp opens to 40, call from mp2, and i 3bet from co to 180 with AA, villian tanks and 4bet to 430. He obviously wants a call 4betting this small. Since we are pretty deep and I have position, I decided to flat his 4bet and play. 5betting this deep usually scream AA and most pros can might away from KK QQ cheaply.

flop J45

V bets 570, I call.

turn 4

V checks, I thinks for a bit and bets a little under half-pot for 950, V tanks for one minute and calls.

river 9r

V goes all-in quickly for another 2.2k ish that covers me.

I'm a little confused and thought I was trapping until this point. What kind of hand is he repping here? What does V thinks I have when I called his 4bet? called the flop & bet turn?
I thought if he has JJ he would probably c/r me on the turn. So I eliminated that pretty quickly...and what kind of bluffs does he have? Will someone go for thin value with KK here and hope I calls off with QQ?

hmm i take it back...i guess he could have JJ here? slowplaying hoping the river was not a spade and shove hoping that I put him on a missed spade draw?

peeling is ok but clicking it back to like 2.25x just has to be better here. i guess w hands like kk/aa/ak and maybe like some combos of a-
also turn sizing should be like 75% at least imo
as played pretty easy call for less than half size pot bet (if im doing the math right)

You got exactly what you were hoping on this board. No Q or K on the flop, no flush draw. If he 4 balled you with JJ then NH.

Snap it.

Just 5bet this to 900 or something, you guys are deep, it's usually harder to get stacks in with just one pair if psr is high on the flop especially against a good player. As played call river obv.

Sorry you lost, theres no way you wouldve posted this hand if you won.

Never ever folding here given your line... I actually think something crazy like A4cc is more likely than JJ.

Fwiw on turn I would blast it and make it look bluffy

Hands way too strong too ever consider folding. 6100 in the pot getting 3:1 only have to be good 25% of the time. If you fold this you only call with JJ since you don't have any other pp boats when you get to the river as played. You're way too far up your range to ever fold here imo. As for how it was played to the river, your play was completely fine.

+ 1 Never folding.

This becomes a post because he has A4s?


BTW, I like flat in position against lag pre.

Well played, call river.

I think this is a lot closer than people are saying. What are we hoping to see when we call? AK/QJ spazzing? Thin KK? KQss? None of those seem very likely for various reasons. Yeah this is the top of our range and yeah our odds are good(ish) but I honestly don't think I've ever seen someone take this line and be bluffing.

he might put you on QQand try to makeyou fold. Im neverfolding AA here, he could likely play KK this way. His only really repping nothing imo.. notsure why JJ would c/cturn to donk shove river.

This is really bizzare but I don't think you can fold here. If this guy seriously is 4balling JJ (or even dumber, 99) OOP 400bb deep I guess we just lose. I also get a vibe of something like 4x but you know, gotta lose that money.

I agree that this is a bit closer than some are suggesting for a couple of reasons. First, JJ and 99 are in your range, especially JJ. Second, check calling the turn and donking the river would be a strange value line to take with KK. Third, I don't think we can entirely discount the possibility that Villain got way out of line pre with A4 or 45 and then caught a miracle.

But I still think that it's a close call. In my experience, it's somewhat rare for live players to pause for a minute before check calling a turn with a huge hand. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but often enough, I think this is a hand like AK deciding whether to fold, bluff raise the turn, or call the turn with the intention of bluffing the river. If Villain wants to win with a hand like AK he has to raise the turn or lead the river. OP never has air here.

I actually don't mind flatting the 4bet pre (if there's no history of 4b/5b/6b with deep stacks). In game I probably just 5bet though.

I'm basically beating villain into the pot on river. I agree it's a weird line that kinda removes some bluffs but we are ahead of QQ+ and getting a good price. Also, we block Ah4h.

Inb4 V had JJ

Results?

I have a silly question because I am a live poker player and I don't know much. Do you 2.25x AK here?

See my issue is when you 2.25x 4b you basically always get called in live poker (not the worst result when you are extremely overweighted to value anyways I know
) and then the old 279r flop peels and you 30% or whatever and villain never folds again and then the Jr peels and villain has about $3 bucks left and ?

I imagine the answer is presented within the question.

The idea of doing it with AK would be to have a properly constructed/balanced range.

But you're arguing that people in live poker have a specific tendency (that they wont fold in this spot, regardless of what they have). If that observation is true a high % of the time, then the obvious adjustment is we only do it for value (AA/KK) and just flat our AK. Obviously exploitable strat, but such is any strat that attempts to exploit somebody else.

I think the pause could be JJ and V is trying to establish a range for Hero to have (which should've been done already) and whether to flat or raise here. It could also be a random hand just trying to win the pot with some draws and thinking about a shove with FE!!

Typically a quick player action is in response to a missed draw or a miss and a scare card coming out. Well, the 9 shouldn't scare too many Hero's here so we are dealing with a monster 99/JJ or an unimproved hand, maybe a missed draw

A big portion of the decision here is what does V put Hero on? Does Hero flat here on the Flop with AK/AQs/Jx/pp a lot or just made hands?

Due to the flat PF V and Hero are sharing ranges to the point where I think we need to call it off with AA ... and V has 'something', we just don't know if we win or not. I think KK/QQ/AA outweighs the JJ/99. Does V feel obligated to c-bet A4c here? How about quads?

Is the 'I want a call' 4-bet sizing so V can 4-bet fold or trying to induce .. or trying to get a call as Hero thinks. Not sure with that. GL

This is kinda what you wanted by not 5-betting pre...so call.

Plus, pot odds.

Horrible reason wrt logic for calling. The fact we're "underrepped", while not negligible by any means, is certainly less relevant on this particular board texture as he's really only value cutting himself with one hand (KK), which is a thin shove regardless so it's difficult to give him a non-polarized range.

Preflop call is fine. As a side note, you really need to be 5-betting some bluffs here if you think there's a decent chance of folding out QQ/KK. In other words, this hand is only a call when you haven't yet established to him that you're capable of 5-bet bluffing.

Postflop is kind of lame but I think KK is in his range and it's a pretty comfortable call for the odds.

Look at it this way:

1. There are 3 combos of JJ, fewer if you discount the probability that he would 4-bet. Let's just say 2 combos for the sake of argument.

2. There are 6 combos of KK. You need 27% to call. 0.27 = 6x/(6x+2), x= 12% He only needs to play his KK like this 12% of the time in order to call.

We only need him to show up with KK 12% of the time, or we only need him to have 12% of his KK combos? (thus, if he plays even 1 of his 6 KK combos like this it becomes a slamdunk call?)

12% of his KK combos. So yes, if we exclusively put villain on JJ and KK then if he plays 1/6 of his KK combos like this its a slamdunk call.

However, more likely he also has 1 A4cc combo and maybe 1 combo of a bluff like 67s or something so I think it's still an easy call. Never ever folding this river given action.

Results?

The second one. 12% of KK combos (0.72 combos). I think in practice it isn't quite this simple though. He'll show up with some non zero amount of 4x and 55 combos.

I'm open to a course corrrection if necessary, but isn't this particular turn only ck or shove with a range that calls a 4b/cbet on J45r with 1.4 PSB?

Is it ever betting 975, leaving <.5psb eff?

You aren't trapping in the sense that any semi-decent V will always have some frequency of AA in your perceived range - flatting a 4bet IP does little to change that given the game conditions you described, so be careful with that way of thinking as it can get you in big trouble.

To add on to my turn thoughts above, I think its actually in your favor when you still have AA in perc range on this turn moreso than your preference that V erase it entirely (trapping). On this board, you have the option to shove betterwith more of your continuing range against a semi-capped range (he only 4b twice in 4 hours). AA can protect subranges (like JTss/76s/some gutters perhaps) and inversely get called lighter by hands a sharp V will think you're looking to have him ck-f.