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All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold?

03-28-2018 , 04:18 PM
This was at a 1/2 NL Home Game that I've been attending for the past couple months.

Villain is in his early 20's. I've seen him a couple of other times at this home game - although I've never actually played a hand against him.

Observations from seeing him play (in past games):
- Villain doesn't play a lot of hands but isn't necessarily tight
- He'll play middle pairs and any two face cards.
- Villain is very aggressive and isn't afraid to double barrel bluff his over cards on a dry/low flop board

Details:
- Takes place about 1/2 hour into the session
- Hero has $200 stack and is in the SB
- Villian has $99 stack and is on the Button

OTTH:

Button Straddle is on ($5)
Hero limps in the SB with T8c, folds around to Villain on the Button who raises to $20. Hero calls

$41 in the pot, flop is 567r (no clubs). Hero checks, Villain shoves all in for $79.

Hero?

Notes:
- I decided to limp in the SB as I've played in this game many times and I know a lot of players in this game like to limp when the straddle is on, and I feel T8c will play better multi-handed (although it ended up being heads up).
- Based on my previous observations of the Villain I'm putting his range as ATo+, ATs+, and possibly JJs. I don't see him shoving all in with QQ+ or a set in this position as he would get more value out of those hands on turn and river.
- My gut tells me this is a shove with overcards to get me off a straight draw

Spoiler:
I call, turn is a 5s, river is a 3d, Villain shows KQo and wins the hand.
All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? Quote
03-28-2018 , 04:27 PM
I'm probably folding that hand preflop the first and second time around. You're in bad position and you didn't get the limps you wanted...he also has a tiny stack and most of the time you're going to have to check/fold on the flop.

On the flop, once I get there, I'm just shipping it hoping he folds overcards. There's a difference between calling off an all-in and putting somebody all in.

AP, I'm probably still folding.
All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? Quote
03-28-2018 , 04:34 PM
Pre is horrible. Fold both times. The first limp is questionable, but once you are facing a $20 raise from a $100 stack and are oop its time to fold. If you do call, just open jam the flop yourself. As played, trust your read and call.
All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? Quote
03-28-2018 , 04:36 PM
Fold. We're paying 79 to win 199, so we need 40% equity to call. I haven't done the exact calculations, but I'm pretty sure we have don't that much equity in this hand. You're assumption that he wouldn't push all in with his super strong hands could also be very wrong, seeing as he doesn't want you drawing to a straight.

I would fold preflop. This is a playable hand in late position with many limpers, not first position when you are not sure if players will limp behind you/raise. I agree with spirits suggestion of pushing all in on the flop if you plan to call a bet anyway, especially if you think hes the type of the player to cbet most of his range.
All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? Quote
03-28-2018 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebestfish
Fold. We're paying 79 to win 199, so we need 40% equity to call. I haven't done the exact calculations, but I'm pretty sure we have don't that much equity in this hand. You're assumption that he wouldn't push all in with his super strong hands could also be very wrong, seeing as he doesn't want you drawing to a straight.

I would fold preflop. This is a playable hand in late position with many limpers, not first position when you are not sure if players will limp behind you/raise. I agree with spirits suggestion of pushing all in on the flop if you plan to call a bet anyway, especially if you think hes the type of the player to cbet most of his range.
Just did calculations cause i decided I was botherered, for a medium/tight preflop raising range from his position we have slightly over 40% equity, if we were assuming he does this cbet with all of his range here to try push you off a draw. If we know he is the player who makes these bluffs, then I might call, otherwise I would fold. Based on description, I think its a call.
All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? Quote
03-29-2018 , 09:01 AM
Being a very loose preflop player myself, even I most likely fold this pre both times, but most certainly to the raise. Your OOP (no no #1) vs a V who has a short stack (no no #2). Even if you stack him this hand (unlikely), over time you will be lighting a ton of $ on fire making this play because the odds just aren't there.

AP, you certainly have 8 outs and who knows maybe as many as 14. $120 to call $79 means you need ~40% equity to call at 0EV. I dont' think you have that versus his range so I let it go.

I do agree with the other poster though that shoving yourself maybe is the better way to play it once you get to this flop. Only Q is how likely is he to fold an OP to this move as you need decent fold equity versus his entire range to make it at least 0EV if not +EV.
All In Shove on the Flop - Call or Fold? Quote

      
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