Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
I disagree. Being a LAG c-betting heads-up in a small pot on the flop is entirely different from doing it multi-way in a 3! pot where a c-bet will commit him. The value we get here (in my opinion) is from V's worse Ax that he can't fold and flush draws he wants to chase.
We aren't getting another bet out out of him by checking as he's not going to turn his mid-pocket pairs into a bluff. We called an EP raise followed by a 3! OOP. Hero should have an Ace in his hand like 99% of the time here and V should know that.
Checking just gives him a chance to catch up and it looks like that may have happened on the turn. I'm perfectly happy taking this pot down on the flop as played and happily calling a shove if that's what happens. TPTK isn't a hand to slowplay in this situation.
Also - how can donking flop simultaneously be considered spew and playing afraid? That doesn't make sense. We shouldn't normally be in this situation, meaning we shouldn't normally have to donk here but since Op effed up PF this is the spot we are in which is why I'm leading flop.
Your points are thoughtful and your writing is good man, but I think you're just leveling yourself here. It's really a lot simpler than all that.
We have seen an aggressive villain bet multiple streets in multiple hands in a short period of time. We flopped TPTK. We have reason to believe villain's range is fairly wide. Exactly Ax and flush draws are a small part of it. I also expect villain to bet flush draws and worse Ax - as well as air/worse.
Hands *other than Ax and flush draws* comprise like > 80% of his range. I wouldn't give villain any credit for hand reading. Further, if he could hand read, it's still a check. Pre-flop, we can easily have hands like ~66-JJ,KQs. We do not have Ax 99% of the time. I expect this villain to fire this flop as a bluff with weak hands very often.
Maybe not the case for you man, but I think the arguments for donking flop here are generally fearful. People (again, maybe not you) expressed concern that the LAG would own us if we check, etc. I sensed a lot of fear about playing oop, "not knowing where we are," the LAG "exploiting" us, etc.
People were also worried that villain would "catch up." That's not the right way to think about it. Most of the time, V will bet the flop with a range that AK is destroying. Let him bet. Most of the time, V does not have a hand that is capable of catching up, and, on average, when he does, his equity is low.
And it's spew simply because it's such a sub-optimal strategy.
And what are you doing if you lead the flop and the "wild LAG" V raises your flop bet?
You really can't be too surprised to see a wild LAG raise the flop with some frequency when you donk into him. You do need a plan for it. But when you led the flop in the first place, instead of giving the wild LAG a chance to put in more chips with a very likely weak range, you gave him a chance to continue/play back at you mostly with a range of hands against which you are in a far worse position. You probably can't fold after you lead and he raises, imo, and it's just a horrible spot.
Let's put it another way. When you check flop, you could possibly get V to put chips in with a wide range that easily has < 20% equity. When you bet the flop yourself, V will continue with a more narrow range that has more equity.
Which range of hands do you want to play against?
