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AKs - Flop play question with TPTK AKs - Flop play question with TPTK

06-15-2013 , 01:36 AM
Villain is a LAG who has tilted off about $1100 for the night so far but seems to have tightened up his play recently.

The table is very loose / passive with many players playing too many hands and going too far with marginal hands and marginal draws.

Hero: $300
Villain: $400
MP: $200

Preflop: (9 handed)
Blinds: $1 and $3

Hero is dealt AK in the SB

Folds to UTG+2 who opens for $15, two players call $15 behind him, villain calls $15 OTB, hero calls $15 in the SB, BB folds

Flop: A T 5 ($90)
Hero bets $75, MP thinks and calls $75, Villain moves all-in for $265, Hero moves all-in
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 01:49 AM
???

Villan starts the hand with $400, calls $15 pre-flop and then moves all-in for $265?
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 01:50 AM
3bet pf, I'm stacking off on this flop

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AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 02:04 AM
I think this is a fold, because I can't think of a hand in a three bet pot that shoves over our bet or calls a shove that we (with TPGK) beat.

I'm guessing we're up against TT, AT, or the single combo of AA that could be out there. We also could be in a tie with one of the six possible combos of AK.

For us to be ahead, someone would have to be awfully brave with middle pair (JJ QQ), AQ or a gut shot (KQ or QJ). I know you said the table was going too far with marginal draws, but ....
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 02:16 AM
Bad to fold here versus s guy punting off money. Versus a nit I fold.

Real issue is pf imo.

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AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 03:06 AM
I could not 3bet here pre, but I need a very good reason to not 3bet, and I doubt you have one.

There's 60 bucks of dead money in there, raise to 75.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 03:13 AM
I'd go higher to 100 and ship like 95%of flops that are hu.

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AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 03:15 AM
I don't see the need to turn our hand into a bluff. Sure it's profitable, but it's not better. There will be very little post flop play if we raise to 65 and get a caller.... and it will be much easier for AJ or KQ or whatever to stay in.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
I could not 3bet here pre, but I need a very good reason to not 3bet, and I doubt you have one.

There's 60 bucks of dead money in there, raise to 75.

Totally agree. With a premium like AK sooted, i will repop this every single time with this kind of dead money in the pot. This is a spot where you can exploit one major leak that many 1/2 players have: they call way to much and dont fold when they really should fold.

This is actually one of my favourite kind of spots in these games: face an early pos raise and 3-4 calling stations putting dead money in the pot, and then picking up a premium like KK-AA or AK in SB/BB/button and putting in a juicy 3 bet This situations sets up Villains for all kind of mistakes,you can see the pain on their face when they not get to see a flop with at a cheap price They possibly is shipping back with a weak range, calling off huge 3 bet pre with horrible speculative hands etc etc.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 09:06 AM
What do we think Villin's range is here?
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t

Real issue is pf imo.
Agree. A three bet here pre-flop is the way to go.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
I could not 3bet here pre, but I need a very good reason to not 3bet, and I doubt you have one.

There's 60 bucks of dead money in there, raise to 75.
3 bets were getting called pretty light in this game. If I had 3 bet to $75 pre assuming one or two of my opponents call me I will be in a really awkward spot. I will have $225 left and be playing a ~$210 pot out of position and have to bank on hitting.

By calling I might can flop some monster hands and stack some people playing AT, A9, KJ type hands.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbastard
3 bets were getting called pretty light in this game. If I had 3 bet to $75 pre assuming one or two of my opponents call me I will be in a really awkward spot. I will have $225 left and be playing a ~$210 pot out of position and have to bank on hitting.

By calling I might can flop some monster hands and stack some people playing AT, A9, KJ type hands.
This makes absolutely no sense. If they're calling you light, they're calling with AT, A9, KJ type hands, and it's way easier to stack those guys when the pot is 210 pot with 225 behind than it is flatting freaking 5 ways. There's just no way both of those things are true.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 08:16 PM
This is one of the few spots I'll 3 bet pre and feel no shame whatsoever about going broke on the flop.

As others said, a raise to 60-75 will knock out all but 1 or 2 at most, and then gives you perfect odds to stack off on a favorable flop.

As played, I mean, the pot is 480 and you have to call 190. You are getting 2.5:1 with TPTK and a couple longshot draws. Only TT, 55, and AT beat you. (or A5, but you have a number of additional outs there).

I think you still stack off here, but I feel a lot less happy about it than I do if I 3bet pre.

If you 3bet to 75 pre and get 2 callers, this flop is an auto-ship.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 09:14 PM
3 betting pre is the best move as others have stated. Howeveer, AKss plays good multi-way (compared to AKoff). And to have five bad players in the hand is always a good thing. Your position is bad, which is more of a reason to take it down pre though.

As played, given your relative position and amount of players in the hand I would strongly lean towards a fold.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 10:10 PM
If reraise preflop to 80$

As played fold.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notam
What do we think Villin's range is here?
While that is a valid consideration, the main problem doesn't lie in the post flop decision.

Why?

The current SPR ($300/$90 = ~3.5) is good enough for a hand like TPTK to commit in normal circumstances, hence the flop lead is good. However, given that this is multiway, the shove looks strong. Are we then going to commit? We look at how much we have invested into the pot.

We have put in $75+15 = $90 which is just slightly less than 1/3 stack size. It is a marginal decision really. Against a looser player, I would commit. Against a tight player, I fold. It is too situational and judgmental for outsider to decide here. Only OP knows exactly what type of villain is he exactly facing.

But again, this is too marginal to call. So where is the problem?

The problem lies in preflop play. OP should have taken into consideration the SPR in multiway pot and make adjustment to it.
  1. Is the table loose enough to entice players to come in by calling with AK?
  2. If the table is loose enough, is the OP willing to stack off with TPTK with SPR of 3.5 in multiway pot?
  3. If OP has no intention to stack off in multiway pot when SPR =3.5, then he should and must 3 bet.
  4. 3 bet sizing depends on his judgement. Raise it big enough such that he will be comfortable stacking off TPTK or just commit yourself preflop by 3 betting with an amount that he will be shoving flop no matter what comes
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-15-2013 , 11:26 PM
If you are going to flat in the SB the you might as well fold.

3bet, close your eyes and ship it on flop. :0
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-16-2013 , 12:04 AM
LOL 3 bet preflop

lol at stacking off here and not 3 betting pre.

hope you like burning money.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote
06-16-2013 , 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
This makes absolutely no sense. If they're calling you light, they're calling with AT, A9, KJ type hands, and it's way easier to stack those guys when the pot is 210 pot with 225 behind than it is flatting freaking 5 ways. There's just no way both of those things are true.
Yeah if three bets are getting called light AK is a clear 3 bet for value.
AKs - Flop play question with TPTK Quote

      
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