9 handed, 1/3

Table plays pretty big. Lots of straddles with very loose calls pre-flop. A few good players (LAG/TAG), some stations, no nits.

Hero (~$700): MAWW, perceived on the tight side, but they know I can bluff/semi-bluff and am willing to gamble (I lost my first $300 JJ<KK all in pre-flop vs. someone I thought was trying to steal w/ a big A or smaller pair. Oops.)

V1 (~$3,500+): MAWG, bought it for about $3,000 I assume as intimidation considering all the reds, good tournament player (won two tournaments at a nearby casino recently), very aggressive and puts on a lot of pressure, somewhere between LAG and TAG

V2 (~$1,000): MAAG, very good poker player, bought in for $1,000, on the tight side but also knows how to put on pressure, knows how to value bet, when to fold, etc., on the TAG side

Limper is an average, loose/passive fit/fold player.

OTTH:

Pre is obvious, but everyone is welcome to comment on size.

V2 staddles BTN for $10, two limps, H in MP raises to $75 w/ AhKh, V1 calls from LP, V2 calls (I got the impression he wanted to raise, but then he flatted), one limper (~$500) calls (see what I mean about loose pre!)

Flop (~$300): Qc 7h 4d

Limper checks, Hero?

I bet 100 on flop.

Why would more money be intimidating in a cash game?

Fold to a raise?

Ask him. He bought in for about 5x the biggest stack. He'll bet huge in questionable spots and make people really think about continuing with anything but the nuts. Seems to work well for him.

Depends who raises and the sizing. But I'm not going to fold to a raise that often.

I’m checking the flop four ways. We have barrel potential with 2 overs and back door nfd but stacks are too shallow to really do anything here with the $10 straddle pre and the big raise called in 3 spots.


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I have a general rule that 4 handed w/AK with initiative that if flop misses I don't cbet.

At some number of villains we have to make a decision on when to cbet and when to check. We can all agree 9 handed to flop here is no cbet. Same for 8,7,6 ....

The cutoff of when to bet/check here can be debated of course, and "general rules" are designed to be flexible. But we should all have a number in mind and stick with it barring unusual circumstances.

Awhile back a good regular here on 2+2 had posted graphs for cbetting and results vs # of villains, there was a huge dropoff between 3 and 4 villains. If I can find it i"ll post

Here it is

Not taking different boards into account makes your rule or whatever not that useful.

Wow, you can BI for $3K in a 1/3 NL game?!?! This game is obviously out of my wheelhouse, but...

Also, is this a good game? We're $700 deep and there are at least 2 people who cover of us, both of them described as very good players. Anyhoo...

I don't think preflop is obvious at all. I would overlimp here 100% of the time. If it limps around, whatever, AKsooted in a multiway limped playable SPR pot, which is awesome, imo. If someone raises, we can evaluate who is doing what and how much dead money there is in the pot and perhaps reraise (or even shove) to maximize FE and guarantee we see all 5 cards / realize our equity. It's doubtful we'll be able to raise enough preflop to setup a trivial stackoff spot postflop with TP, and we'll possibly be playing OOP to two solid players.

At least we got in 10%+ of our stack preflop, but we still offered 3 players 12+ IO, which ain't poor enough for my tastes because we'll have a hard time folding TP postflop in an SPR lol ~2 pot and yet if any of the good players get in their stack postflop against our obvious TP we can't be loving life.

I check/fold the flop. This is the other thing that doesn't make preflop as "obvious" to me; getting in huge 10% of our stacks to not even realize our equity ain't great (which is why a limp/reraise should be considered).

ETA: Ha, might want to black out DGI's name there since I believe he sorta eventually went off the deep and that might sour the legitness of those giraffes. But I'm in the same boat as crsseyed; not cbetting air on a 4way flop (regardless of texture) ain't a bad default, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Without positions, ranges and boards those graphs are relatively meaningless.

Oddly enough my thread interactions with GG remind me of mine with DGI. The only difference is everyone except me seemed to worship that guy.

Also AK w/ bdfd on Q 7 4 is far from air. But you think TT is air so who knows.

As crsseyed mentions, it's basically just where you draw the line. Where are you drawing the line Spy? I doubt we're *too* far off where we draw the line here (or are you cbetting this 6way)?

GcluelessNLnoobG

It's an amazing game. Buy-in is uncapped. (I just calculated my graph for this game and the 1/2 that plays in the same room, and I'm up $7,000 over 185 hours. It does not always play this way, though.)

I am never limping AK suited here. I admit I was surprised to get three callers, but that doesn't change my decision.

I also bet $100 here. If you have the best hand, it’s extremely vulnerable against 3 players and unless an A or a K hits you’re unlikely to win the hand if the flop checks through. Someone’s likely to take a stab, or have a pair by then. Also, with your image, you may be able to take it down on this board with aggression representing AA-QQ.

I’d continue against some raise sizes and fold to others. Also depends who raises ofc.

If we bet 100 and get raised, the pot will be $400 plus the raise. There’s already one player in the hand with <$500. We would have like $575 left after the bet. You want to stack off here with AK high bdfd?


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Who said anything about stacking off? It’s largely dependent on who raises and to what size, as I said.

Maybe

Preflop is fine. With the described Vs having position on our Heroine, I’d rather stuff it in here and take my chances. I think these Vs would have 3b 77, QQ and we block some Aq and they might have even 3b preflop their AQs sometimes too. I don’t think a 100 cbet accomplishes much other than setting up a gross turn spot where we’ll have far less FE.

check the flop, you don't make money in loose games by piling in the cash with ace high in a four way pot

Limper checks, Hero checks, V1 checks, V2 bets $75, limper folds, Hero?

I got the impression he wanted to bet more. He put his fingers over his stack of greens to grab $100 or $125, but dropped a couple of greens and bet only three.

I didn't see the point of a cbet. I'd hate to get raised, and I want to see another card cheap -- preferably free.

AP fold. Simply because you’re probably going to need the best hand to win now, as it’ll be hard for you to rep a big hand after checking against these players.

Maybe you can consider a c/r to $250+?! Probably shutting down if called though as your line doesn’t really make sense

You can call once, but I really dislike this line.

Those graphs/models are useless and I feel bad that he probably put a decent amount of effort into those posts. .

1. Using a simulation when you could just graph the EV equations.
2. Assuming villains continuing frequency isn’t affected by sizing
3. Assuming villains continuing frequency isn’t affected by number of players in the hand.
4. Ignoring that even our weakest hands should still capture part of the pot when called.
5. A bunch of other reasons I don’t care to continue listing.

A model doesn’t have to be perfect but it should have enough application that you can learn something from it. What can you learn from this? Smaller sizing works better against inelastic continuing ranges? C-betting is a bad idea against people who never fold bottom pair is a 5 way pot? You could intuit these things without a silly graph.

The bigger problem is that it implies some very, very wrong things. Such as it is printing money to c-bet napkins HU regardless of the situation, c-betting smaller is always better and c-betting very multi-way is never profitable.

Lmao what exactly are you representing?

Java, I'm def not cbet this multiway. V's physical tells a sign of strength? Of course you're peeling flop getting 5:1 with bd equity. Turn?

Well put.

I think this is an easy check and maybe mix in some check/raises from time to time, I’d most definitely go the check/raise route if we had NFD. I don’t think it would be too hard to float behind here either. Curious to how you ended up playing the hand.