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Old 12-21-2018, 02:53 PM   #26
krilleater
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
What exactly are 'strong hands' when deep and no one folds? You're losing because you're bad lagging it up against station types and everyone is playing bingo with trash. You're also costing yourself tons of money pre in spots where you have to give up. Things get expensive when you 10x opens in these games and it's completely unnecessary. Select a range that makes nutted hands you can stack off with, open to 10, let them all call w A6o and 84s, KJ, etc, and then out-value/take crusher lines post (if you can) OR just give up pots for 10 and move on to the next hand.
Uh, you still have no argument for how I'm supposedly "spewing pre."

AK can easily stack off on many boards. Let them call me down with their KJ.

Your argument seems to essentially be that I'm charging myself too much in the spots where I have to "give up" without considering all the money I make from the more frequent times *they* have to give up. Not to mention that I'm also opening AA/KK to this.

I don't get your perspective at all. Opening a premium to 10 and taking it 5 ways would be a horrible result.

It sounds like you're an OMC who thinks 30 is too much for a "drawing hand."

AKs is an extremely strong hand. It can make plenty of nuts and TPTK. Other players might be deeper, but I only have 450 so they're not exactly getting good odds to set-mine.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:10 PM   #27
Amanaplan
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Re: AKs at 1/3

Yes, you are charging yourself too much pre. You also need to take 'premiums' out of your vocabulary when playing a game where you are deep and all the money is made postflop.

How to win in these games?
[x]AKdd 10, 4 callers, J43cc, check decide.
[ ] AKdd 30, 2 callers, J43cc, bet 60.

My adjustment would be to widen my ranges pre from all spots, but keep my open sizing the same. Essentially every pot you play in these games are 2b, because you make them that way, do so with more hands, keep your flop cost down, demolish post flop, and make all the money.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:12 PM   #28
krilleater
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Re: AKs at 1/3

"Charging yourself" is a ludicrous thing only an OMC would say. AK is way ahead of most calling ranges.

I ask again, how do you play AA? $10 with 6 callers?

I can't believe I'm even arguing this.

Last edited by krilleater; 12-21-2018 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:18 PM   #29
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Re: AKs at 1/3

10 pre is so bad
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:46 PM   #30
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
How to win in these games?
[x]AKdd 10, 4 callers, J43cc, check decide.
[ ] AKdd 30, 2 callers, J43cc, bet 60.


[ ] outplay opponents
[X] play bingo with the rest of the table
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:19 PM   #31
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Re: AKs at 1/3

I think the "idiot" name calling is out of line but I have to agree with krilleater on the whole preflop debate.

How could a preflop raise ever be "too much" if it is for pure value and still getting called by plenty of weaker hands? We want to exploit the table's mistake of calling way to much, not start playing a style more similar to what they are doing.

We build the pot with hands that will have a big equity edge and because we thinned the field we still leave the possibility of outplaying our opponents, rather than just hoping to make a nut hand against 5 players.

As far as the idea of the Cbet size, I understand the adjustment of going bigger when talk about how light everyone is calling standard sized cbets. I think another important part of that adjustment is cbetting a tighter range. In other words, if we start betting 75% pot but are still betting at the same high frequency we bet 40 or 50% pot with I think this is a mistake. So we should be more selective with our cbets and not fire into 2 players on a flop that gives us very little in terms future street prospects.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:58 PM   #32
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Trying too hard to be cool.
Lulz.

Cuz appearing cool is my #1 priority while posting on these forums.
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:31 PM   #33
mikko
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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"Charging yourself" is a ludicrous thing only an OMC would say. AK is way ahead of most calling ranges.

I ask again, how do you play AA? $10 with 6 callers?

I can't believe I'm even arguing this.

$10 is to small.

$30 is fine in this vacuum with AK. But what other hands are you comfortable raising to $30?

I am raising smaller than most. Even with multiple limpers now. I absolutely have loved the results.

These bingo games get deep stacked fairly quickly. Where premium hands start to lose their value and suited connectors and pocket pairs value increase.

Raising smaller say 5x instead of 8x or 10x. Even with 2 or 3 limpers still accomplishes alot. And I am willing to argue it produces higher EV.
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:40 PM   #34
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Confirmed.

GG would crush this game.
Until he doubled upped. Not sure he wants to be playing 275BB deep mutli-way
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:37 PM   #35
krilleater
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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$10 is to small.

$30 is fine in this vacuum with AK. But what other hands are you comfortable raising to $30?

I am raising smaller than most. Even with multiple limpers now. I absolutely have loved the results.

These bingo games get deep stacked fairly quickly. Where premium hands start to lose their value and suited connectors and pocket pairs value increase.

Raising smaller say 5x instead of 8x or 10x. Even with 2 or 3 limpers still accomplishes alot. And I am willing to argue it produces higher EV.
Honestly, I just tighten up my opening range in this game and instead join the limp/call-fest with other hands I want to play. Plus, depending on position I'll work in a L/RR raise with strong hands and bluffs.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:56 PM   #36
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Re: AKs at 1/3

That is fairly standard answer. Is exactly what has been preached on this forum for quite sometime.

So there will always be cult following for it.

What I have found is raise size plays very little roll in the number of callers as long as it is 5bb or larger @1/2 and 4bb at 1/3.

It is fairly standard in my game to see Tags and lags raise to 8x-10x trying to play pots HU or 3 ways. It doesn't produce netter results than my 5x-6x open.

Think of yourself. If HJ opens to $30 after 2 limpers, what hands are you calling with 100BB deep? Now if he opens to $22 does your range change?

If so please post those hands. For Button and BB.
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:39 PM   #37
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Originally Posted by krilleater View Post
Honestly, I just tighten up my opening range in this game and instead join the limp/call-fest with other hands I want to play. Plus, depending on position I'll work in a L/RR raise with strong hands and bluffs.
Well, I tried to help, but it appears you already have a crusher strat in place.
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:45 PM   #38
mikko
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Re: AKs at 1/3

Still like to hear why everybody want's to cbet here?
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:15 PM   #39
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Still like to hear why everybody want's to cbet here?
It's so they can bet AA on Q33 also
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:37 PM   #40
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Still like to hear why everybody want's to cbet here?
Not everyone.

It's also a fat value bet for all the runouts that complete your hand like non-club K, non club ace.
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:38 PM   #41
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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It's so they can bet AA on Q33 also
One of your better jokes lol
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:31 AM   #42
krilleater
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
That is fairly standard answer. Is exactly what has been preached on this forum for quite sometime.

So there will always be cult following for it.

What I have found is raise size plays very little roll in the number of callers as long as it is 5bb or larger @1/2 and 4bb at 1/3.

It is fairly standard in my game to see Tags and lags raise to 8x-10x trying to play pots HU or 3 ways. It doesn't produce netter results than my 5x-6x open.

Think of yourself. If HJ opens to $30 after 2 limpers, what hands are you calling with 100BB deep? Now if he opens to $22 does your range change?

If so please post those hands. For Button and BB.
Maybe in your game that's true, but I've definitely seen significant difference in callers between a $12-18 open and a $25-30 open in my game.

Theoretically, why wouldn't I open the largest size possible that people with worse hands will still call me with? If I open ship and get calls from AJ wouldn't that be an optimal sizing?

As for $22 vs. $30, the biggest difference is in the profitability of set-mining. At $22 w/ a $450 stack, it can definitely be profitable but with $30 on a $450 stack it's much closer to break-even at best.

Anyways, I definitely think preflop was the street where I made the fewest mistakes here. C-bet is definitely questionable, as are further streets.

Results: I checked, he shoved and I snap called. He turns over AJ and I scoop.
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Old 12-24-2018, 01:19 AM   #43
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Re: AKs at 1/3

Basing a preflop strategy to make set mining unprofitable. Sounds super counter productive to 99% of hands you play.

How often are you stacking off vs sets?
Could that be because our preflop raise sizing is so large we feel obligated to stack off light?

If we have AA. Do we not want 66 to call?
If we have AK do we not want A8 to call?

Sure we get more money in pot pre with premium hands. But it limits amount of hands we can open. Still only getting 10% of stacks in pre. So obviously postflop play is still way more important.
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Old 12-24-2018, 02:05 AM   #44
krilleater
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Re: AKs at 1/3

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Basing a preflop strategy to make set mining unprofitable. Sounds super counter productive to 99% of hands you play.

How often are you stacking off vs sets?
Could that be because our preflop raise sizing is so large we feel obligated to stack off light?

If we have AA. Do we not want 66 to call?
If we have AK do we not want A8 to call?

Sure we get more money in pot pre with premium hands. But it limits amount of hands we can open. Still only getting 10% of stacks in pre. So obviously postflop play is still way more important.
I was just explaining the difference in hands I would call against a $22 vs. $30 raise.

We definitely want 66 to still call—and they often will (because live players love pocket pairs), even though that's overall an unprofitable play.

I'm still getting calls from weaker hands (witness the AJ hand this thread is about) while thinning the field enough that postflop decisions are simplified).

You're right that this does limit the number of hands I can open, but honestly the game is loose enough that I don't see that as a major issue—I still play plenty of other hands and manage to get action from large opens.

I'm still not seeing how opening AKs to $30 is "spew." It might not maximize BB/hr, but it simplifies hands somewhat and I think is certainly +EV.
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Old 12-24-2018, 08:14 AM   #45
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Re: AKs at 1/3

It's not spew to open AKs to $30 in this spot and no reasonable argument has been presented ITT to support that position. It's reasonable to argue the implications for your overall preflop strategy mean it may not be optimal sizing but that's a different category to spew.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:54 PM   #46
mikko
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Re: AKs at 1/3

Definitely not spew with AKs. But hurts overall strategy IMO.

Not a fan of how you said you play rest of your range. Since these large sizing must be reserved for strong opening range.
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