Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-18-2018, 02:23 AM   #26
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
Hmmm I'm noticing a pattern here....

A trivial fold?? So MUBSY, especially when we don't have the A and that small donk bet sizing.

This is a call and likely going for river value when he checks to us.
Lmao. Because math and/or GTO application to close spots is MUBSY. Or even pure straight up facts/concepts that you cant wrap your head around. Okay.

Betting river is also spew. But you dont want to give off the impression you’re a MUBSY nit. I get it.

Last edited by Minatorr; 08-18-2018 at 02:28 AM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:23 AM   #27
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,642
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
Min, you're wrong here. It's hard to wrap one's head around what 90/75 stats mean, but his range on the flop is literally any Ace, most Queens, some 7's, any gutshot, and any two spades. There are 36 combos of top pair with one spade in his range, plus a host of other hands he can donk (e.g. JsTc). Folding to less than halfpot in position is a crime here.
Agreed.

I may be overreaching here, but a gazillion hours of LFR informs me that Vs generally do not take this turn line at this sizing for value because it is not a natural/ideal way to get value from heroís perceived range when compared to check raising. Itís a call and the river is a pretty decent check back hand outside of some serious fish stomping exploit that would mandate a bet. Doesnít seem to apply here.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:25 AM   #28
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Agreed.

I may be overreaching here, but a gazillion hours of LFR informs me that Vs generally do not take this turn line at this sizing for value because it is not a natural/ideal way to get value from hero’s perceived range when compared to check raising. It’s a call and the river is a pretty decent check back hand outside of some serious fish stomping exploit that would mandate a bet. Doesn’t seem to apply here.
Hm okay, I will take into consideration what you guys are saying since you obviously have more experience and a lot more first-hand accounts of similar situations lol. I still dont think we have like say 50% equity vs his range or something ridiculous like that ott, and that this is a snap call though. But yeah getting 3:1 and needing 25% equity you guys are probably right that this is a call vs a splashy whale

Last edited by Minatorr; 08-18-2018 at 02:40 AM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:27 AM   #29
HomelessPizza
grinder
 
HomelessPizza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LA
Posts: 599
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Lmao. Because math and/or GTO application to close spots is MUBSY. Or even pure straight up facts/concepts that you cant wrap your head around.

Okay.
I won't deny that GTO has its place, but making the highest EV play is usually far from GTO against these live players.

Instead of being stubborn, try being open to learning how to maximize your EV at LLSNL.

Again, I would never be betting OTR against a solid thinking player, but you will be shocked how often you get called down by worse 1p hands on this runout.
HomelessPizza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:31 AM   #30
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
I won't deny that GTO has its place, but making the highest EV play is usually far from GTO against these live players.

Instead of being stubborn, try being open to learning how to maximize your EV at LLSNL.
I didnt say to play GTO at any point. Im saying this is a close spot and im using a GTO application to justify a fold in a spot where we have a close decision.

Yeah, says the one who was being extremely stubborn about lol opening 22 from UTG and had to resort to ad hominems because he couldnt refute anything I said. I mean, yeah keep maximizing your EV/high winrate opening 22 from UTG. LOL

And i am open-minded. I just tend to especially not be when posters just launch personal attacks at me rather than explaining their why their POV may be more +EV, and especially resort to ad hominems when they cant refute any of my math/logic/explanations

Last edited by Minatorr; 08-18-2018 at 02:53 AM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:42 AM   #31
AllTheCheese
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AllTheCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sad life; won't change
Posts: 11,907
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Yeah, his flop calling range is fairly wide. But his turn donking range on a flush completing card isnt the same as his flop calling range. It is definitely condensed to some extent, although hard to quantify. Vs his value range we are drawing dead, and even his pair + FD have good equity. Id imagine he has almost every combo of flush here since he VPIP so much, as to what % he donks them ott with is unknown.
He certainly has every flush draw in his flop calling range - no disagreement there. But his flop calling range is massive. My ballpark would be over four hundred combos. If I counted correctly, there are exactly one hundred combos in the deck that beat us ott, and he probably doesn't have Q7o or Q6o with full weight.
AllTheCheese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:51 AM   #32
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,642
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

For sure not a snap by any means, just too much equity to release against block bet sizing and all the advantages in our favor heading to the river.

...and yea his range is massive and includes so many pair+spade type hands monkeying around, some legitamate worse for value, and a whole lot of ‘hands that ck call anyway so might as well lead’ stuff.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 03:01 AM   #33
branch0095
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 901
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
For sure not a snap by any means, just too much equity to release against block bet sizing and all the advantages in our favor heading to the river.

...and yea his range is massive and includes so many pair+spade type hands monkeying around, some legitamate worse for value, and a whole lot of ‘hands that ck call anyway so might as well lead’ stuff.

This is where I'm at too. Combine that with the insane image V has, and I just can't fold OTT when V splash bets a random pile of chips that pretty much equates to a blocking bet. If this V is as LAGtard as advertised, then I think he can absolutely use the turn as a scare card in an attempt to make hero fold 1p hands. I'm not first pumping, but I'm calling turn IP and evaluating river.

OTR, kinda weird IMO. Rivering nut-trips actually shouldn't change much, though we do now beat 76, and I guess the very unlikely Q7/Q6 if he can be that insanely wide. This may be super nitty, but I'm just tabling my hand here. I think hero's hand is somewhat faceup, and once a spewy LAG gives up on this river I think hero only gets value from the case A. I guess it comes down to how often V decides to pot control with Ax versus how often he's trying to take another non-standard line by trying to induce with flushes and boats. All the time he shows up with random crap and missed draws should be irrelevant, as he can't call a river bet with those hands anyways. I just think there are a lot more combos of flushes/boats than there are Ax holdings.

Last edited by branch0095; 08-18-2018 at 03:12 AM.
branch0095 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 07:37 AM   #34
smokey93
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 279
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by megamen70 View Post
I was mp next to act not in the B.B. when I 3bet
Thanks for the correction.

---

I always miss details. Always. Missed the word "maniac" in the title. V literally tossed out some chips amounting to 155$.

As described, sounds like V did it pretty quickly when the TURN card fell.

Against a maniac that tosses chips out without thinking much hm..

--------

Would it be wrong to fold here when we are deep against all player types, even nits? I'm more prone to giving nits credit for leading TURN even though it's for 1/2 pot. If the nit have a big hand OTF, i feel he would more likely check raise or lead flop himself

Last edited by smokey93; 08-18-2018 at 07:45 AM.
smokey93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 10:17 AM   #35
DrChesspain
Pooh-Bah
 
DrChesspain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,998
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey93 View Post
On a second thought, I think Minatorr is right.

We do have plenty of better hands to call down with, that makes folding OTT in this situation fine, too.
Really? The bulk of our value range OTT is AK, with some AA/QQ/AQs sprinkled in.
DrChesspain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 11:11 AM   #36
smokey93
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 279
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
Really? The bulk of our value range OTT is AK, with some AA/QQ/AQs sprinkled in.
Thanks for pointing that out

Thats the plenty of hands I meant without much thought though previously I mention that AK is a value hand that beats a bunch of V's weak range, and that the flush range is just a "small fraction" of V's entire flop cbet calling range, which I still stand by, epecially when we set ourselves up in such a way preflop where we only 3bet for value against V's VPIP
smokey93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 11:14 AM   #37
browni3141
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Florida
Posts: 4,809
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Minatorr, I understand what you are saying about AK no spade on the turn, but I pretty strongly disagree. QQ/AA/AQ/AK is not our flop betting range against this player type, so AK no spade is really not the bottom of our turn range. We should be 3-betting this player pretty wide pre-flop, at least as wide as our normal UTG+1 opening range. I don't have a flatting range as any hand strong enough to cold call and play multi-way OOP after everyone else calls behind us is strong enough to 3-bet for value against a 75% range.

When we are making such extreme adjustments to extremely unbalanced opponents, it doesn't seem right to think about where our hand is in our range. We know what villain's leaks are. He's going to put a lot of money into the pot with weak hands by either calling or betting/raising. We exploit this leak by not folding good hands, even on bad runouts. Villain's betting range is so wide, I would not be mind-blown to see 8c7c on the turn. Villain has no concept of ranges and TPTK is a hand I'm hardly ever folding under any circumstances to someone I regard as a maniac. It also helps that villain can only bet up to $300 on the river, which I'm calling on non-spades.

River is a super clear max-bet.
browni3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 05:05 PM   #38
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
Really? The bulk of our value range OTT is AK, with some AA/QQ/AQs sprinkled in.
We have more AA/QQ/AQ here ott (fwiw im also 3b AQo). we also have AKss ans AsKx and AxKs is what i meant
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 05:07 PM   #39
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Minatorr, I understand what you are saying about AK no spade on the turn, but I pretty strongly disagree. QQ/AA/AQ/AK is not our flop betting range against this player type, so AK no spade is really not the bottom of our turn range. We should be 3-betting this player pretty wide pre-flop, at least as wide as our normal UTG+1 opening range. I don't have a flatting range as any hand strong enough to cold call and play multi-way OOP after everyone else calls behind us is strong enough to 3-bet for value against a 75% range.

When we are making such extreme adjustments to extremely unbalanced opponents, it doesn't seem right to think about where our hand is in our range. We know what villain's leaks are. He's going to put a lot of money into the pot with weak hands by either calling or betting/raising. We exploit this leak by not folding good hands, even on bad runouts. Villain's betting range is so wide, I would not be mind-blown to see 8c7c on the turn. Villain has no concept of ranges and TPTK is a hand I'm hardly ever folding under any circumstances to someone I regard as a maniac. It also helps that villain can only bet up to $300 on the river, which I'm calling on non-spades.

River is a super clear max-bet.
It’s true that a normal cbet range shouldnt be just AQ/AA/QQ/AK otf. But here OP bet 83.33% pot otf. Ofc if we bet 33% or even HP our range should be much wider. Do you think OP’s betting this large with KK/JJ/1010? Or even say A5s?

But okay I get what you guys are saying and will try to apply it more when I play live

I think the consensus here is to mostly check river, what hands are you getting value from besides Ax? Do you think he calls 7x, 88-JJ, and Qx at a good enough frequency to justify betting? Or do you think he neve checks a flush/boat otr
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 10:37 PM   #40
megamen70
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 370
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Spoiler:
megamen70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 11:35 PM   #41
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,760
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

I think the key fact in this hand is the previous history. This villain has folded to hero's preflop 3bet once before and a second time hero 3bet, the villain called and folded to a flop cbet.

We can exploit bad players by folding just as well as by calling. I don't think a turn fold is a mistake.

As played on the turn, betting on the river is bad. Our hand is not that great, and the river card, as has been pointed out, does not improve our relative hand strength very much at all.

Check back on the river and see who wins.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 12:12 AM   #42
ChrisV
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 40,378
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

I continue to think flatting turn is good despite results. I'm not folding a hand this good getting 3/1 on a single bet from a guy who plays virtually ATC. Granted he knows where the fold button is, but I don't think it follows from that that he only bets 2 pair+ (whereas I think it does follow from that that we shouldn't bet river).
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 04:34 AM   #43
bodybuilder32
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,423
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Based on his actions on the river, he doesn't seem like a true maniac. A maniac would snap call, pound the table, high 5 the dealer with a **** eating grin if he was holding a flush. He would probably bet it on the river as well. I never see maniacs get MUBsy. I think hero may have the wrong read on his opponent that lead to a spew. Even though his Vpip is high, there was nothing suggesting that he spews post flop.
bodybuilder32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 07:33 AM   #44
Petrucci
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,193
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
Based on his actions on the river, he doesn't seem like a true maniac. A maniac would snap call, pound the table, high 5 the dealer with a **** eating grin if he was holding a flush. He would probably bet it on the river as well. I never see maniacs get MUBsy. I think hero may have the wrong read on his opponent that lead to a spew. Even though his Vpip is high, there was nothing suggesting that he spews post flop.
+1 to this. Seems like heros playerprofile/read was off here with results in hand due to villain hem and hawed sigh calling with a flush.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 07:39 AM   #45
ChrisV
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 40,378
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Don't think OP ever suggested he was a maniac, that's a thread invention.
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 07:47 AM   #46
Petrucci
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,193
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Don't think OP ever suggested he was a maniac, that's a thread invention.
Really? The threads headline says "AKo vs maniac"

Last edited by Petrucci; 08-21-2018 at 07:56 AM.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 08:27 AM   #47
ChrisV
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 40,378
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

OK missed that. Nothing about it in the actual OP.
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 10:51 AM   #48
Money$Team
adept
 
Money$Team's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 823
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

You are deep against an aggrotard so why not 3bet bigger pre for value?

Against that sizing and a Villain this wide and unpredictable I would be calling to evaluate river.

I think 200+ is about where I start folding AK no spade
Money$Team is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 10:52 AM   #49
Money$Team
adept
 
Money$Team's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 823
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Really? The threads headline says "AKo vs maniac"
LOL
Money$Team is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 11:00 AM   #50
megamen70
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 370
Re: AKo vs maniac 1/3 1k+ super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by megamen70 View Post
I havenít seen that many showdowns heís been mostly the aggressor and running down the passive fish with aggression. I also think Minotaur makes a good point that I actually am at the bottom of my range here.

I will add that I donít think heís an idiot I think heís a thinking player who just lags it up and knows he can completely run over the passive fish in the room. As to how he would play one spade hands here I actually feel like he has been playing more straightforward against me and giving me some respect as the other big stack at the table. Intuition says he would be more likely to check call a hand like kq with a spade.

As played I felt like it was worth it to at least see a river. Felt like he was the type to also have some spazz seeing the flush draw get there and just betting it to get me to fold.

So I call and we see the river (630) A

V checks hero?
Tried to clarify that while super loose preflop I donít and didnít think heís an unthinking idiot. He plays a lot and is agro in small pots but heís not 4bet piling with trash or anything like that. Only had 2 hours of sample but I certainly wasnít thinking of him as a true gambooly maniac fish. To the extent that you can be a thinking player with pfr of 75% thatís how I describe him. Also might be explot against other fish at the table and he tightens up a bit against me. Itís hard to be super specific with a read through forum post.

Maybe hyperlag was the better term but he literally was raising almost every hand preflop. Also he shows up with 85s defending to a 3 bet isnít that a pretty maniacal play? Regardless I do think a turn fold might be correct because I just donít think heís floating my huge flop bet with air and when he leads the turn he has so many flushes and probably not much else. Canít be too bad given price and how wide he is pre but idk
megamen70 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive