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Old 02-16-2014, 10:11 AM   #1
AbqDave
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AKo oop vs pissed old man

I pretty much played this hand on autopilot but wondering if there's a better way.

2/5

Hero (SB) $1300. 55wm. I must look like a dope or something. Been playing tight, and when I'm in, it's always for a raise. But the young shark to my left is in like every hand with me, calls every cbet. Finally got him off my back by firing two barrels a couple times. But anyhow, table saw me bet/fold a bunch of times.

Villain (CO) $700. ~65wm. Kind of a bad player. Limps too much. Recently has been open raising in position a little more often than he should. Sometimes opens for $20, sometimes for $15 (? bet sizing tell). Weak post, tends to bet weak and roll over too easily.

History: One orbit before, villain opened CO to $15 and I took a stab at 3-betting ATo out of the SB. He acted all pissed, said "nice hand" sarcastically and mucked his cards.

Hand:
Folds around to CO.
Villain: bets $15
Button folds
Hero (SB) with AKo raises $45
BB folds, villain calls.
Pot ~90
Flop: T86r
Hero?

Thoughts. It appears villain has grown balls, maybe because he has something or maybe because he's getting pissed.

Gotta figure his range is pp and broadways. Does he include hands like JT and QT? If so, I'm in a world of hurt. Not so much if he's only playing the top of his range, say 88+,KQ,AJ+.

This is pretty much an autobet for me, but I'm thinking he calls with pretty much his entire range, leaving me at best a coin flip and somewhat more likely an 80-20 dog, and not liking life very much on the turn.

What about checking and calling HIS cbet? Figuring a) his bet sizing is going to be smaller than mine; b) I think he is very unlikely to fire two barrels with an unpaired broadway hand; c) if he checks behind the flop or turn, he loses initiative, and d) he's more likely to fold to a river bluff than to a cbet.

Or is this just too passive and wussy?
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:20 AM   #2
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

Check fold. This flop misses your range entirely, not to mention your hand. You think he will bluff you if you check? I wouldn't worry about it. If he has AJ or KQ you'll probably get to showdown.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:53 AM   #3
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
Check fold. This flop misses your range entirely, not to mention your hand. You think he will bluff you if you check? I wouldn't worry about it. If he has AJ or KQ you'll probably get to showdown.
I agree with all of this. We don't really have to worry about villain bluffing us off of our equity if we check.

In fact, I expect him to check back most of his range here, except for sets.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:58 AM   #4
AintNoLimit
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
Check fold. This flop misses your range entirely, not to mention your hand. You think he will bluff you if you check? I wouldn't worry about it. If he has AJ or KQ you'll probably get to showdown.


This
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:10 PM   #5
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

I don't think our cbets work on this board against pissed old men. I check and expect him to check back with any hands that don't hit that board. He'll probably bet all of his Tx hands. So what. If he bets then fold. He may even check back his small pp's. Cool, lets us peel that A or K.
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:44 PM   #6
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unreal how many ppl say check fold because this missed your hand.... lol is this a joke? Is that how ppl play? "Ugh I raise with AK and missed the flop so now I check fold...." Seems real... Just cbet and win the pot most of the time and when V calls a cbet just give up.
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:47 PM   #7
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

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Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen View Post
unreal how many ppl say check fold because this missed your hand.... lol is this a joke? Is that how ppl play? "Ugh I raise with AK and missed the flop so now I check fold...." Seems real... Just cbet and win the pot most of the time and when V calls a cbet just give up.
I think it has more so to do with board texture, sir, not, "Oh no's we missed a flop." There are definitely some boards I feel much more comfortable cbetting in this spot.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:21 PM   #8
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

we're checking because the board misses our range AND because villain is an old live fish who probably isn't betting this flop without a nut hand.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:10 PM   #9
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

The thinking in this thread is contradictory. It villain is smart enough to know this board misses our range, then he would also be smart enough to realize we have air (most likely AK high given the 3bet) when we check and bluff us off it.

Even if he's a passive old man, I doubt he's going to just check 3 streets IP with QJ or such when he knows he can't win.

Betting also gives us the chance to fold out something like 44. Grumpy old man is likely to get upset he missed his set and pitch his cards.

IP I might check, but I feel like even the dumbest player will bluff us over 3 streets, so I'd take a stab on the flop.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:30 PM   #10
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

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Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen View Post
unreal how many ppl say check fold because this missed your hand.... lol is this a joke? Is that how ppl play? "Ugh I raise with AK and missed the flop so now I check fold...." Seems real... Just cbet and win the pot most of the time and when V calls a cbet just give up.
Yeah, I hear ya.

There was a time that I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.

So many things are like that in poker. I've said each of these things at one point:
1. I'm never check/calling again, ever. It's bet or fold.
2. I'm never playing the small blind again, ever.
3. I'm never calling an all-in bet, ever again, ever.
4. I will never limp in ever again.

Each of these phases was necessary at the time. To be clear, each of those resolutions made me money at the time. Now my task is to move beyond those simple rules.

Checking is neither good nor bad in itself, except to the extent that it saves you money or costs you money.

I appreciate the replies greatly.
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:59 AM   #11
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

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Originally Posted by matzah_ball View Post
The thinking in this thread is contradictory. It villain is smart enough to know this board misses our range, then he would also be smart enough to realize we have air (most likely AK high given the 3bet) when we check and bluff us off it.

Even if he's a passive old man, I doubt he's going to just check 3 streets IP with QJ or such when he knows he can't win.

Betting also gives us the chance to fold out something like 44. Grumpy old man is likely to get upset he missed his set and pitch his cards.

IP I might check, but I feel like even the dumbest player will bluff us over 3 streets, so I'd take a stab on the flop.
The problem is he is calling with almost all his range here. Sure, he will probably fold Ax, Kx, which we have crushed anyway. But list all reasonable hands he could have here with no A or K and they all make a draw or a pair on this flop. If he has a pair, he will usually call at least once (because yes, most players will surmise that we have high cards when we 3bet, and no high card came), and he will justify a call with a gutshot because, hey, if we do have AA he can stack us, right? And against our actual hand (important) he is not making an equity mistake in calling in these cases.

So, we are getting called a huge amount of the time when we bet, and we have to give up on 41 of 47 turn cards then check. At this point, if he did call the flop with Q9, QJ, and misses the turn, the pot will be bloated, and we have shown weakness, which together is much more likely to precipitate a bluff from villain with hands that we are now well ahead of. We cannot call, however, because his overall range on this board is wide and we will be drawing to one pair, with one card to come OOP in a big pot.

So the only benefit of betting is to stop ourselves getting bluffed by Ax or Kx. I don't think it's worth it.

Last edited by Czech Rays; 02-19-2014 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:35 PM   #12
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Re: AKo oop vs pissed old man

This is a pretty bad board to cbet, everything from 45-QJ has a gutshot or better
Granted its a 3bet pot so his range should be weighted to broadways and pairs, but being the initial 3better, our range is polarized even further than his.

Im okay with giving up here
If you cbet here there is going to be a ton of bad turn cards that you will have to check oop.
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