Live 1/3
UTG is a typical recreational player we have a decent amount of history with, and he has a reasonable utg range. 220 stack.

CO is unknown older gentleman, never played a hand with him he has about 160

Utg opens to 10, 3 callers to the CO who 3bets to 26
Folds to us in the BB with AKo, we have all players in the hand covered with a ~320 stack.

Hero should?

Folding isn't out of my mind here, we are basically pot committing ourself if we 4bet anything above a min bet because of all the short stacks involved, we also don't have anything committed to this hand and can easily get away from a scenario where we're flipping at best and have 20% equity at worst.

4betting here picks up a lot of the dead money in the pot, but like we said we don't think we even have a 50% chance to blow every player off their holding and we will probably have to go with it.

So what do we do?

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if u are folding here seems like youre folding too much especially since his bet was so small and so much dead money in the pot...i would call or raise

I can't really imagine flatting a 3 bet here multi way out of position, definitely seems like the losing play.

Unknown "older gentleman" makes me think he's all about that JJ+ here.

I also don't mind folding.

If we're playing, 4!>flatting. I don't really want a flop 3 ways oop so... $70-$75? Not much more than min, but enough that Vs think about it a bit more. I'm trying to win it there though. Not sure I'm calling the 5! ship, unless I have a feeling this V isn't only taking that line with AA.

This is an easy fold. Not only are you behind the 3 betters range, you may well have RIO postflop. If you hit a K, his QQ- will just give up, and his AA will take a chunk off of you.

Id rather have 76s here than AKo.

Looking back I think I lean towards a fold here, UTG open and 3 bet by an unknown just seems like a super thin spot to get it in with AKo. Plus I've been trying to take less variance routes when possible, it just feels wrong to fold AK pre, but this seems like a spot where we can get away from it.

AP we 4bet to 80, folds to btn who jams for 160, just not folding here when we 4bet half of the effective stack. He turns over KK and holds.

Flat the AK OOP

What's our plan when we flat here? There are still 4 people to act behind me, are we folding to a 4bet here? Are we 5bet shoving? Even in the rare occasion no one else opened the action are we just check folding every time we don't make a pair?

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the 3 bet was really small and yes I'm trying to flop a pair. I will be folding to aggression.

It’s probably very slightly +EV to cold 4b, there’s so much dead money and with that much $ it’s hardly ever going to be wrong to go with AK here. If you dont mind variance cold 4b is a must, flatting is pretty bad.

Cold 4b > fold >>>> flat

the money isnt dead. This is 1/3, UTG will just call it off with AJo, and OMC will either snap call with his aces, or tank call with his kings. (of note I suggested the exact opposite action in the other AKo cold facing a 3 bet at 2/5)

can someone explain why it is bad to flat ak out of position here

Anything to make of the super weird sizing by both players? I mean, $10 at 1/3 NL is very small, and the minnish type 3bet which will guarantee a 5+ way pot is super weird (is this really how this old guy plays AA/KK against the field?).

I dunno, in the end it's a 3bet by a shortstacked old guy, so AK shrivels up here. But with the weird sizing and huge dead money I would be tempted to jam.

ETA: I guess the one argument for flatting is that we know this will go 6ways and we're just trying to outflop the old guy (who we'll have no IO against his big pairs) and mainly looking to just hit against a smaller A/K against the field and stack them. Although putting in a huge 1/6th of our stack preflop to do so kinda seems meh, plus we stack ourselves against speculative hand miners (since we'll never be able to fold TP postflop in an SPR ~1 pot).

Gjamorfold,imoG

Maybe this is a huge leak in my own game but AKs/AKos is getting it in for 100BB at these stakes. There are way too many AJ/AQ/QQ/JJ and occasionally AA/KK which we block that we have equity against. Also there are nits in these games that will be folding part of their 3-betting/opening range like 10s.

That being said, I'd mix it up between flatting occasionally depending on how comfortable I am at the table to disguise the random JJ/10s/99s/AQs spots. But I'm mostly 4betting this to like $90 pre and tend to not get cute at this level.

The action is extremely weird, folding is out of the question. $23 to win $66 in the pot and we have AK vs some oddly played hand from CO. Just because CO is old we put him on AA every time? Even though we have an ace? I'm leaning towards this not being AA since the 3b was to such a stupid size.

We should at least call, probably come in with a 4bet. If CO does have us completely owned at least he is only about 50bb deep. An argument can be made for flatting and keeping in dominated hands but with the dead money and an entire crowd of players in the pot I am coming in with the 4bet and if we are coolered then so be it.

I would have to agree with this...sometimes ATs calls it off at 1/3 whereas 2/5 they muck instantly...just making slight better decisions that long term seem like amazing decisions when really they are quite simple just hard for some heads to make

agreed...ak is strong enough to call OOP especially for this price...if an A or K comes on the flop, you are probably good - yes V could have Ks or As but thats just poker....if you miss the flop, just fold to aggression

Anyone like jamming here and riding the wave?

Don't even think twice about folding to 3bet from an unknown older player and UTG initial raise. Just do it.

Agreed

The fact that you can't imagine flatting a 3bet here when flatting a 3bet is at least arguably profitable (and I would argue is indeed profitable) is a leak. There are also arguments for folding, even though I find them unconvincing. But at a bare minimum you should understand the argument for flatting. If you don't understand the case for flatting, you'll fold in other marginally better spots where folding is CLEARLY worse.

But the title of this thread and this post makes it sound like you just accept that flat-calling AK isn't even worth considering in spots like these. In small stakes NL, your 4 bets with AK will often narrow down ranges to those that crush you.


Truthfully it actually is fairly marginal, but folding marginally profitable hands isn't conducive to improving skills so we can move up.




This is very similar to another recent hand so I'll just link to my reasoning there: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...1&postcount=18

You can confidently fold if you can eliminate a hand as good as QQ from the reraiser's range. Knowing that he's an "older gentleman," we should start by assuming he's tight, but not that tight.

(You can also reasonably fold if you can eliminate JJ and AK from his range and if none of the four players in for 10 is ever going to call with a dominated ace or king, but that assumption seems implausible.)

+1
Yawn

this is the easiest fold ever

-1

OP, you won´t get much quality answers in threads like these imo, people just state their opinion on villains ranges and believe it to be factual.

We don´t know their ranges though with the reads you provided, you´ll get two camps of either gii or folding based on their own experience when in reality you should know the ranges of your villains much better than us posters here.

Personally, with as little reads you provided, we got a situation with 23bb of dead money and 73bb eff stacks. imo most people do have some sort of sizing tell, neither the open nor the 3bet size looks particularly scary, if I get coolered for 70bb here, be it.

the two camps are more based on
are you a rec player with no bankroll and play for the GAMbool of it

or are you a full time player looking for your bankroll to increase

I do agree when sitting there with a read on V's much more info is at hand then provided here most of the time

playing AK offsuit OOP routinely is not recommended

Funny how the better players (minatorr and sauhund) say one thing and the losing nits all say another.

Stop folding a top 3 hand for 70bb in cash games