Hey,

Had an interesting spot come up last night and just looking for thoughts and opinions on what to do in this particular spot.

Reads:

Villain- young mid 20's Asian dressed in jeans and a shirt. Been aggressive pre and post flop largely in position by raising and taking down a decent number of pots on the flop. I've seen him 3bet once to 3.5x with KK in approximately 2.5 hours. He's sitting on about 200$

Hero: Been relatively tag but a little looser in position. Have built up a stack by getting it in good with a set and KK. Haven't done anything crazy since I've sat down and villain has only really seen me showdown winners. Sitting on around $710.

On to the hand:

Hero opens utg+1 for 12$ (fairly standard raise for the table) with AKcc. Called by loose fish in mp and villain in CO 3 bets to 55. Actions now on to hero and I...

Thoughts: I've only seen V 3 bet with a premium and this sizing looks like a hand he wants to get it in with since he raised 1/4 of his stack. I feel like AK will be tough to play oop if we miss especially given the tiny SPR with his sizing. His 3 betting range is probably JJ+ and AQ+. My question is whether we should fold, 4bet gii or flat oop? I wasn't quite sure what the appropriate line is since this is a relatively high variance spot.

I happened to be with a 2p2er at the time that was playing 2/5 and he advocated 4bet getting it in because he assumed there were some bluffs in villains range and are flipping and or beating other parts of villains range.

Wasn't sure what the right move is since there are so many better spots at 1/2 live so thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.

Personally, I'm never flatting there this shallow out of position. It's 4 bet or fold, because to realise your equity you'd rather see 5 cards vs check fold all whiffed flops.

I'll fold here often vs some villains but insta shove vs others depending on their ranges.

You're 52% against the range you've given villain. There's an extra $15 in the pot as well as the $12 you've already committed. If you're confident with your ranging, shove

can't see him too light when squeezing.
He's almost always ranged here at JJ+/AK, and he's not folding here to our 4bet due to his large investment. I'd even go as far as taking AKo out of his range here with that sizing, and leave it at JJ+/AKs.
So folding here isn't a mistake imo.
Deeper I am all up for peeling this.

It's wishful fantasy based thinking that V has bluffs in his 3-betting range. 3-bets at this level for 1/4th stacks preflop are exclusively JJ+, AKs with 80% of the weight being KK+. As nitty as it sounds, you can fold here vs most rec fish.

You've only seen hmi 3bet once?
Or you've only seen one hand that he 3bet that he showed down which was KK?

If it's the latter, I think it's a 4bet/call.
If it's the former, I think it's a fold.

It feel pretty close. I guess things to consider is, have you been active in EP? Have you folded to a 3b pf? I See him raising 1010-AA, AKs-AJs, AKo-AJo(maybe). Could see some other pk pairs but not often. With out the above info, its hard to say which way to go. You are only dead to the AA, obv KK sucks but you still have a 30%ish, and are flipping most of his range, and only have the AQ's AJ's dominated. The buy in format would come into play, as in if there is a small capped buy in that would make it more difficult to reach a large stack, then there is consideration of maintaining a large stacks value in future hands. If you can match largest stack, its not much of an issue. Do you think hed do that with small pairs like 55 that would fold to a shove? Would he call a shove with any pk pair? If he would 3bet with smaller pairs AND will fold those, then I think, with out knowing any of the other information, it pushes the close decision to a shove. But I might still fold it, nitty, but I gotta think there are better spots to put in almost 1/3 of your stack. Seems like such a close decision for so much of your profit, Im assuming (I know ass out of me and you) you bought in for 2-3 hundo so its almost half of your profit when you can be useing that chip stack more often in multiple decisions than a one big at most likely flip.

Def interested in response to this thinking, Im trying to expand my thinking to a more professional level as opposed to my usual taking a handful of chips and shoving them down their throat...

Masta--

Thanks for the replies everyone. Based on the sizing, it looked to me like he was pretty eager to get his whole stack in. I elected to fold and feel pretty good about the decision after hearing the responses. It's just so rare in LLSNL to see someone 3 bet 1/4 of their stack without a non premium hand. I really liked the point about peeling if we were both deeper, but as was mentioned we need to see all five cards to realize our equity with him being so shallow.

Masta brought up the point about him 3 betting his small pairs in that spot but to be honest I doubt he ever does that into two people especially given that I opened from ep. If we were to 4 bet then gii I feel like it would fold out all his baby pairs (if they were even in his 3 bet range to begin with) and we would be up against the top of his range QQ+ and are drawing very slim against that range.

Thanks for your comments so far

OP,

it does raise a point to all of us about opening up our own 3 bet ranges and how we size them.

I rarely play 1/2 any more but if I knew that I could 3 bet big in position and fold out AK suited I'd have an erection the size of Texas and be 3 betting a far wider range.

If he's 3bet folding his smaller pocket pairs that's a pretty graet result for us.
As we fold ous so many comobs of hands that are ahead of us.
So, that's a good thing, not a bad thing fwiw.

Very well said.

True, but the OP sounds competent and if you were 3-betting often he would have noticed and adjusted -> He would not have needed to create a thread to discuss what to do.

I think the key is that you saw him 3 bet once in 70 hands and that was KK. I'd put the chances of it being a bluff at 5% or less. One thing that people do subconsciously is that they don't 3bet EP raises light. If he was 3betting light, you would have seen more 3bets. Even when I was playing 100nl before BF, online players were only 3betting those raises about 2.2% of the time. Live players, are even less likely to 3bet. I don't think there is even JJ in his range. Against the likely range of AKs, QQ+, you're about a 40/60 underdog. He's going to grunt, whine and then call you.

The secret to gambling is to take the 60/40 odds and let go of the 40/60 odds. Fold.

I'll just simply note that 2+2 poster =/ good. He probably heard "Asian" and just assumed he was 3betting like a mad man and is unaware of how position affects even the fish's play.

Two problems with this though. The only players that fold AK to a 3-bet are thinking players that have realized that 1/2nl 3-betting ranges are so narrow and exclusively are QQ+. These players represent probably less than 10% of the 1/2nl player pool.

The other problem you run into is that there is a sizable percentage (40% - 50%) of 1/2nl players that actually do NOT raise with AK and only raise QQ+ because they feel that AK is not a real hand. These are your OMCs, weak tight passives, and nits and limpy trappy weak players. Their initial raising range from virtually all positions is JJ+ and conversely, even though they are weak tight passive and or nitty they don't fold this range to 3-bets. Or put another way, they raise so seldomly and wait all day for their big hands that they just aren't folding to light 3-bets. The remaining 50% of the 1/2nl population that does raise JJ+, AK, AQ are not folding to a 3-bet even though they will believe they are beat, they will still call. Not to mention that too much of the 1/2nl plays semi short stacked to short stacked and thus when you raise them they are pot committed and never folding regardless if they think they are beat.

So adding all of the above up means that 3-betting light at 1/2nl is -EV 80% of the time imo. We can raise light and punish limpers, but 3-betting light is lighting money on fire.

Now, there is definitely a percentage of 1/2nl players that do raise really light and are terribad aggros (around 5% - 10%). These players we can and should raiseand 3-bet light. These players will be easy to identify (just look for the shades, beats by dre, and hoodie and/or super hardcore degen gambly look) and by all means we can abuse them.

But thinking that we can soul own 1/2nl by 3-betting light because it will fold out AK from that 10% of the thinking player pool will result in us getting owned 80% of the time for all the reasons I listed above.

Maybe he just hasn't had the cards to 3!. I've gone a LOT longer than 70 hands without getting premiums pre.

The 3-bet sizing doesn't seem all that strange to me. The raise was called. 3x the $12 + $12 more is $48. As for it being 1/4 of his stack, "rec fish" as you guys call them, seldom pay attention to such things in cash games. I've seen guys put in 3/4 of their stack with claimed top pair, watch the board brick out, and still fold to a river bet that puts them all in.

Thanks for the reply. With your read on the situation about him not raising smaller pocket pairs in that situation, I definitely think that it's a fold as well.

Masta--

Never folding, 3 bet to 125.

Getting in late. It's possible he's been 3bet dead but I doubt it. You referred to him as active which means if wider 3 betting was in his game you'd have seen it by now. Calling isn't an option obviously. I usually make an irritated fold in this situation. Until I sense he's wider than QQ+ maybe AK I just let it go. The ability to fold pretty hands in bad spots is part of what makes a winner a winner.