Playing live 2-5 400bb deep, UTG hero raise to 25 with AsKc, hijack calls 25, button (super tight) only showed down 1 hand and it was AAA77 full raises to 75, hero calls(only b/c he's played so tight + oop + pot control), hijack calls (fish 800bb deep). Flop comes Kh 3h 4s. Hero checks, cutoff checks, button check. Turn 3c, Hero bets $150 into a $230 pot. Cutoff calls, button folds. River 10h. Hero checks, pot is $530. Cutoff raises all in, hero????

Ended up folding, villain had 44.

With such a tight player 3 betting pre, can we safely 4 bet oop?

Lmk -

Is the fish getting odds with 44? I guess with implied odds...?

I don't think we need to 4-bet pre out of position against a super tight range. Nice fold...

I don't understand your turn bet. Supposedly the Villain has no worse hands in his range that are calling a bet. If has worse aces or kings you should have 4-bet.

Pre-flop either fold or 4-bet. Your turn bet, implies that you think he has hands worse than yours in his range.

This description is a disaster. Cutoff turns to hijack, and he shoves all in for more than 1.5k into a 500 pot? Am I reading this correctly?

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You can't be serious, Fold or 3-bet pre?!?! You mean we can never just flat with AK off?

And the turn bet seems fine to me, we want some value. We don't make hands then check them down...

I'm not sure why you want to go battle with AK vs a super tight player's 3bet. I'd fold to the 3bet. I'd love to hear your logic for calling rather than folding (hopefully not because folding felt weak).

I'd 4bet AK as a bluff basically. Not everyone is always as tight as you think they are. Generally speaking if a nit 3bets me I'm still going to take into consideration his position. Even nits remember that chapter on "the button" in whatever poker book they read. Also his sizing seems a little suspect with the preceding action. I mean we have blockers right? He's only going to 5bet with AA/KK, so if he just flats our 4bet then I range him on JJ/QQ setmining. Even if he's fancy and traps with AA he's going to drop a bomb on us eventually so we should still be able to get away without getting felted for 400BB with just top pair.

The problem with just calling AK is that it underreps our hand so badly that villains will overplay theirs, and when you're this deep he may end up accidentally turning his hand into a bluff without realizing it. I mean realistically I dont think that many people are 3betting AQs or KQs but 4betting kind of makes it easier for us to play OOP.

Anyway this fishy bet is pretty trivial to fold to. He makes a massive overbet and everything got there. I dont care if he's bluffing me, our equity is just too low given the odds. He can show it and I'd just chuckle about it and move on to the next hand.

You're allowed to fold AK pre-flop. I have folded it to a single raise before, and plenty of times to 3-bets.

Against a tight 3-bettor your options are 4!/fold or just fold. Don't call. I'm usually 4-betting, but it depends on more specific reads.

This is backwards, IMO. If he has worse aces or kings in his range we should generally not 4! because he'll fold them. We should flat and see a flop against those hands which we dominate.

Post-flop I play the flop&turn the same, but you should bet/fold river for $350 for value from worse Kx. Obviously fold to his ridiculous shove.

I agree with this. Why on earth would you want to play AKo out of position against a super tight (obviously not as tight as you thought) 3bet?

It isn't standard to call raises out of position. It doesn't make sense to think Villain is nutted pre-flop and then has lots of worse hands that will call a bet after the flop.

*GRUNCH*

4bet pre:
1. AKo plays poorly OOP
2. There is a fish caught in the middle who will call with worse.
3. There are two ways to interpret your "button is super tight" read. I would offer the way it appears you didn't consider: button will fold to raises and large bets without the nuts. I don't think he has to have AA/KK only here and you have some FE with your 4bet/cbet. There is a fair amount of profit in these games in stealing pots from rocks.

You have folded AK to a single preflop raise before? Thats terrible. Even worse is that you fold it often to 3bets. Then you want to flat and play it out of position because you supposedly dominate your opponent. Not exactly sure how you expect to get much value this way, you gonna check raise top pair or something when it hits? Just check/call down and hope he 3 barrels? Well if you dominate him then wouldnt you want to put in a 4bet preflop? Do you just flat with AA all the time too because you dominate your opponents hand? Just because a 4bet makes everything worse fold doesnt mean we dont 4bet, because failing to do so has just given our opponent odds to see a flop, namely for the price of $0 since we havent made him put in any additional money. Truth be told there ARE enough people who call 4bets with less than QQ+ to make 4betting profitable almost every single time. Hell if he was 3betting light with say JTs or he has pocket nine's and he wants to "protect his hand" he'll probably definitely call the 4bet now because he thinks he'll stack us if he hits.

Your entire thought process just wreaks of over-thinking and fancy play, no offense.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with folding AKo vs. a "super tight" 3bettor. Now, if we've seen him 3bet w/ hands like 44 before, calling or 4betting are both fine, although I probably 4bet. However, with the description we were given, folding is probably best.

Yeah well button ended up folding pretty quick so clearly hero's read was wrong. I already stipulated that his 3x raise over 2 flat calls is very suspect. If someone opens for 25 and 2 people call, you dont 3bet to 75, you 3bet to 125 minimum. In fact the only hands that 3bet like this are scared 3bets, namely TT, JJ, maybe QQ might be this scared, and sometimes something like AQs by a villain who thinks his hand is just good enough for a 3bet/squeeze but he's too scared to put in more money.

OP gave us no indication of V's 3bet size, so we have no idea if he bets this size w/ AA or KK. All we know is he's SUPER TIGHT. If OP had given any extra reads, such as: I've seen him 3bet light, he has always 3bet 3x + limpers with big hands, etc., then 4betting is a no brainer. Not the case, though. I 4bet a lot here w/ AKo, but not against super tight players.

All we have is what OP gives us, and if you 4bet SUPER TIGHT players with AKo OOP, more power to you.

400bb deep i might agree to not 4bet OOP (upto 150bb effective i would say standard 4bet because we are OOP) because live players tend to call "for the implied odds" (whether they have it or not) - u will just end up playing oop with a hand that cannot stand pressure after flop or mostly stay "medium strength hand"


again +1 i dont know what is "super tight" , 3betting 44 IP shows he is not neither Nit of Nit...

if he was rlly super tight eg JJ+ then easy fold to 3bet



OK AP i think you took a Perfect line except it s a 3bet pot and board is dry - u could bet small OTT.

Vilain is rlly bad OTR because he never gets called by worse here (eg KK)
except if He thinks you are bad enough to call with AK - then you might ask yourself some questions

because over shove 3xxbb in a 130bb pot is a joke

How can you say it's terrible without knowing the circumstances? He was a reg OMC which I had a lot of hours with and knew his range had me crushed (QQ+, maybe JJ/AK sometimes), and I was OOP in the blinds. The only reason I was tempted to call was because there was a big fish on the button, but I decided that I pretty much needed either a miracle broadway flop or for the OMC to have specifically QQ while I flop TP+ and the fish also hits something to win more than the pot.

Against a range of QQ+ AKo is just a junk RIO hand.

I didn't say I often fold it to 3-bets, but there are times it is correct to, such as in situations similar to the above.

You want your opponent to see a flop with hands you dominate. This isn't FPS. If he calls anyway with the hands you dominate, then sure, bombs away, but most people don't call 4-bets with hands like AQ/KQ, and we have a read that villain is very tight, so he probably isn't 3-betting too light.

I don't know where this is coming from, but I don't think it's necessary.

We have more than OP's description of villain (which is often unreliable anyway and skewed towards biases that people hold, especially since OP only described a single showdown he saw from this tight villain that just happened to be a fullhouse. How many times have you heard someone come in here and describe their reads based upon nothing more than a couple of orbits?), we have something better, we have a particular betsize from a particular position. You dont just ignore all of that and go off of "but he's tight" as your only read.

Sure, and you need to charge him to see those flops. You dont let your opponent set the price.

FWIW, I know a guy that plays a decent amount of hands but only raises Aces. That's it. PERIOD. No AK, no Kings, just Aces. He's like 95 years old.

Thanks for the advice you guys. Super tight guy had QQ, I called because AK is a drawing hand, and if I can hit a K or A especially with the fish in I can potentially have a big pay day. I also called to balance my range because I had shoved earlier in the game with AA, so I increase my call range as well, so if I later decide to trap with KK/AA they can not put me on an exact hand.

I think hand is played fine until river.

River is a b/f imo, obv lose more here but you're leaving money on the table when he has like KQ KJ etc and I'm expecting the flush draws that call turn to be the ones with straight draws too of which there aren't so many combos so expecting to see those hands more often.

I mean, it might be results oriented, but looking at results villain obviously is not one of those people that we definitely shouldn't be 4betting AK against.

The only question is whether OP should've known that or not, which I doubt anyone not in the game could tell him.

Ah no, not in this situation. At most you're collecting the cbet on the flop before he shuts down. It doesn't mean that I'd fold AK, but people who are looking to get a big payday with TPTK in all but the weakest games are going hand their stacks to other players.

Balancing does not mean what you think it means.

I agree with Browni. Ive folded AK to a single raise a fair number of times and folded it to a 3 bet lots of times. If the button in this hand is "super tight" like OP said, I fold this preflop without a second thought. Having said that, this is another one of those hands that I see posted all the time where the reads are totally off. If the reads are totally off, any advice given is worthless.