Ok hero is aTAG in a typical llsnl, one or two solid players, a couple if nits, and the rest fish. V1 has been very tight but did 3 bet from the bb allin with 88 got called and won. V2 also seemed tight only played about one orbit though so cannot be sure.

I r to 12 utg with AKo, my standard r. V2 shoves allin for 80 from utg+2, V1 from mp thinks for a bit and calls. He has about 250 behind and I have him covered. Everyone else folds, and it comes back to me.

Do I fold?
4bet shove?
Call and reevaluate?

Your thoughts...

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Fold. It's never a call here, only shove or fold. I'm folding because V2's flat is really strong with the UTG raiser still to act and if he can think at all, he knows you're coming over the top a lot and is just trapping. I'm waiting for a better spot.

Shove and fist pump

There is a possibility V1 is trapping as we did initially raise UTG, it does seem pretty gross atm after he's tanked and just called the raise (if he 4bets he might know we're only gonna call with AA/KK most likely). After only one orbit of play we can't assign a non-standard 3betting range to V2. Because it's such a large 3bet in contrast to our open sizing, our only option is to shove or fold (calling is terrible because of the SPR and being in a WA/WB situation on most flops). We could find ourselves either flipping against JJ/QQ (iso shoving generally means a wider range than cold 4b shoving so we MIGHT get called by these hands) or being crushed a lot of the time if our shove gets called (AA/KK). I'd assume that V1 would fold AK to hero's 4b shove and also fold AQ.

Also, bear in mind that if our only read on V1 is that he is very tight but he has 3b 88 from the BB on a fishy table and had decent equity to win then we can make an assumption that he has adjusted to the table well and is a solid thinking player. We've only invested $12 and taking into account that the best case scenario is to isolate the $160 and go for a flip against V2's range the majority of the time (AQ would be the only possible hand we beat shoving for 40bb in this spot which would still be terrible - flatting would be better). I'd rather just fold even though it's a bit less likely V1 or even V2 has AA/KK because of our blockers.

Just an additional note: say that V1 perceives we are capable of raising TT+ AKo, AKs UTG and then iso shoving over V2 after V1 has cold called. JJ is slightly behind (43%) where QQ is slightly ahead of that range (53%). An argument could be made for him calling with both of these hands so we don't really have much fold equity with our AKo.

I would fold and not even be concerned about it. You get to see the hands and get crucial information for 12 bucks. Then you can pick a better spot to play for stacks. I am admittedly not a fan of flipping for stacks and you could be dead against him in this obvious shove or fold situation.

This. Folding is actually really valuable for info that costs you nothing.

This is why forums are so important, I'm a player who has called river bets light to get info, and yet this never crossed my mind in this spot.

I'm pretty confident that most guys I play with are not strong players. I ended up calling and immediately checking dark, almost knowing this would get V1 to check behind. Flop came 3 8 Q rainbow, I checked, he checked, turn Q, I checked, he checked, now I think we are chopping. River was a non flush 10. I checked, he also and showed KK. IMO he played his KK HORRIBLY allowing me to get to the river.

Btw..I called cause I thought he had an under pair, otherwise why would he not iso V2.

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I shove. I think the guy that called all in is very strong. Too risky to let you come in with a small pair if he has a monster so I think 77-JJ and AK AQ so I think shoving is the best play

this is just bad reasoning. With the overlay you're getting + the fact V2 got aipf from the bb w/88 in a previous hand makes AK an easy shove. His range isnt just QQ+

No this is so wrong.

yup


pre is pretty marginal at best

Shoving shows a nice profit here unless the 80 allin is an extreme nit.

fold

Why can't we just flat and get AI whenever we hit a pair? People play very tournament style check check when people are all in at low stakes games. Think we get some free turns and rivers a lot here.

That's what happened for some reason he checked it down with me. I missed and he actually had KK.

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Are you saying this because you saw the results? The player type wouldn't convince me to just check all the way through with an overpair. Calling is pretty much as bad as shoving..

Celebrate your Spew - seriously what are you EV+ against here ?

When you're getting better than 1:1 on your money and you're flipping, it's +ev

Against an UTG raise of 6x the BB, the guy UTG +2 shoves in for 80...and you still have another player to worry about. You can never assume you are flipping here...this isn't a tournament.

easy fold. calling is a total spew here.

Holy holy holy CRAP people. How in the world are you ever, ever shipping or calling this in a 1/2 game?

Really? Try and put together a range for what a decent 1/2 player is going to flat the UTG+2 shove with, when there is a UTG raise (at a minimum) left to act?

Do you really think he is FLATTING with JJ or QQ? No friking way. He's not a fish, we can at least reasonably assume that. He's also not scared money, based on the 88 play earlier. So he's not flatting those hands because he's scared to put more money in. If he's flatting there are only two possibilities:

1) he's bad. which we seem to be able to rule out based on reads provided in OP

-or-

2) he has a hand that he wants more action on.

Can someone please put together a rational explanation of other possibilities?

If he has 1010/JJ/QQ, he's raising to try and shut out hands exactly like ours, AK/AQ/AJ, etc. Again, unless he is horrible, at 1/2 the most probable result of action like this is that he has a monster.

I know that since we have AK, it eliminates some combos. However, the action is a much stronger indicator.

A call is BAD. On the vast majority of flops, we are flopping nothing. So, what happens then? Do we open shove the flop? Do we check and then wander around in the dark if V bets? for those advocating a call, what is your flop action, OOP, when we flop nothing, in a protected pot?

A shove is mind meltingly horrible for the reasons discussed above.

I'm sorry for the jerk-ish tone, but really, please, someone construct a range for me that does what V did, where we are +EV by shoving? As someone pointed out earlier, we are NOT flipping. For $240 of the pot, we're three way, which makes flipping IMPOSSIBLE. For the remaining side pot, we are not not not flipping against V's range. Sorry.

The only possible hand that V might flat with is AQs, which is 4 combos. I think its unlikely. He range consists primarily of AA, KK, AKs. On the less likely side, we have a few QQs-1010s. We're crushed by that range.

1. Did you mean V1 started the hand with 250, or with 330? If the former, he is NEVER folding to a 4bet shove. (Probably still isn't ever with 330 either.)

2. Calling is pretty bad. We're allowing V1 to play perfectly against us post-flop in a bloated pot. It so happens that he didn't for some reason, but don't be results-oriented!

Nah this is a little objective he might flat those hands

+1. Should not even be considering a call or shove in this spot.

Assuming v2 is never folding and we give v2 a range of TT+ Aj+ and give v1 a range of 88+ Aj+ it's a fold.

After putting the numbers in stove and calculating our ev, I change my mind