+1

Did you guys even bother to read what I wrote?

Yes, but our posts got cross posted at almost the same time.

Sorry

I give you +1 also

Flat the 3bet imo.
But if we want to 4bet, 4bet smaller.

Once we 4bet for this rediculous size, we are almost getting the right odds against kk+, but still not quite, so fold.

Regarding the blocker conversation:
They are important, and something that we want to consider.

But you have to apply it correctly.

Example:
V will 3bet with TT+, and AKs.
V will 5bet with KK+.
We hold AQs.
Lets pretend that V will fold to a 4bet with QQ- and AKs.

This means that v will fold 18 combos of hands (6x TT, 6x JJ, 3x QQ, 3x AKs.)
And v will shove with 9 combos (6x KK, 3x AA)
So v will fold 66% of the time he 3bets.

Example:
V will 3bet with TT+, and AKs.
V will 5bet with KK+.
We hold AKs.
Lets pretend that V will fold to a 4bet with QQ- and AKs.

This time v will fold 21 combos of hands (6x TT, 6x JJ, 6x QQ, 3x AKs)
And v will shove with 6 combos of hands (3x AA, 3x KK)
V is now folding 78% of the time that he 3bets.


But the often misapplied part is when we look at his 5 bet range.

His 5bet range is still KK+. So when he shoves, we are still always against KK or AA. It doesn't matter if only 22% or 33% of the he would have had those when he 3bet us, when he 5bets us, he has those 100% of the time. It's conditional probability.
Your blockers may change how often he 5bets us, but it does not change his range once he does.*



* Yes yes, it changes the # of combos of AA/KK but that's most irrelevant since we're usually folding to a 5bet either way.

Thanks for the nice analysis iraisetoomuch.

The main problem with my big 4-bet is that I commit myself.

But on the other hand, if I 4-bet to say, 175-225 I may not get JJ/QQ/AK to fold and in fact they may shove in which case I'd have to fold.

Considering that with my big 4-bet hands as strong as QQ may fold, is it all that bad?

I'm in okay shape even against KK (if you consider 30% okay) so to me it feels somewhat of a cooler that I ran into AA.

There is just never good fold equity when you get to your 4! spot, you showed great strength when opening early and a tight guy shows extreme strength from the blinds, you CAN ABSOLUTELY fold here.

Your best bet is you are flipping against QQ and he is probably never doing this with JJ. So math wise, you are against QQ, KK, and AA (blockers blah blah, math still says fold).

I said he hasn't gotten out of line but as a 2/5 regular I'd certainly not classify him as tight. His 3-bet range is far wider than QQ, KK, AA.

V should be pretty tight given positions. I prefer flatting the 3bet personally given the positional dynamic, although I don't hate a 4bet/fold. I do hate 4betting this size tho. Make it $200 to go.

Most players' have a very tight 3 bet range from the blinds when the original raiser is in EP...and they would be correct to keep the range tight. Folding AK preflop is not a sin.

Have you observed anything about him specifically that tells you this? Or did you apply an assumption based off of observing other players?

Player A and B are both reg 2/5 players. That does not mean Player As 3! range is the same as Player Bs.

Simply because a majority of a player pool acts one way does not mean a particular player in that player pool is acting in the same manner.