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Old 10-11-2017, 02:57 AM   #1
DumbosTrunk
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AK suited misses flop

Hi all,

1/2 at Maryland Live. MP V1 ($350) raises to $17, hero ($300) 3-bets from SB to $32 with AcKc, EP V2 ($150) calls, V1 calls. This was one of my first hands played at the table. No info on villains.

Flop: 6d9h2s. Pot $98.

Hero c-bets $30. V2 folds, V2 raises to $60. Hero? I guess V1 thinks his overpair is best or he flopped a set? Or has AK/AQ and is bluffing?

Thanks!

- DT
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:13 AM   #2
Amanaplan
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Way too little pre, you'd love to win the pot sans flop if possible.

3ways, no equity, it's ok to check and to check fold. AP, just fold.

I get the sense there was that little bug gnawing away that was telling you to raise/stuff flop, but w no bdfd and likely a table full of players that ain't foldin pairs, you best ignore it.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:18 AM   #3
CWsports
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Do you normally min 3b pre?
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:31 AM   #4
100thMeridian
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Re: AK suited misses flop

I agree...the min 3bet wasn’t a good play here. OOP, and V1 will just snap call an additional $15. Curious V2 limped, CC a 3bet (nice piece of info down the road). I’d be happy to take the down the pot pre flop and would have 3bet stronger to $50. Being new to table, I don’t hate just calling pre either.

The C-bet was weak on the flop too. Think atleast $75 is needed there. I highly doubt V1 hit a set here. You haven’t shown great strength (min reraise, Small C-bet). But he follows with a min reraise of his own. I think V1 has pockets 88-QQ (don’t think 99, I think he would check/call unless building a pot). 87s could be possible (like min raise in that spot). Maybe V1 has Ax and thinks hero missed (but I imagine the flop reraise would be steeper). How the hero has played it...V1 could think Hero might have AA and he he thinks he has a lesser pocket pair. If Hero would 3bet strongly on flop, V1 might fold thinking his pair is beat.


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Old 10-11-2017, 09:56 AM   #5
BackDoorFlush
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Re: AK suited misses flop

$55 pre.

As played, just c/f.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:59 PM   #6
DumbosTrunk
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWsports View Post
Do you normally min 3b pre?
No. But it was my first hand and I didn't want to get too pot-committed with an unpaired hand. Maybe calling is better for this reason. I agree 3-bet could have been bigger though.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:27 PM   #7
jtm1208
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Agreed with the consensus that your Pre-Flop Raise is way too small. When out of position in a hand pre-flop, my standard 3 bet size in a 1/2 & 1/3 game is something along the lines of: (3 x Original bet) + (.5 x Original Bet x Number of players that called). This would have led you to a bet of around $65, which would have probably gotten you to heads up instead of multi-way. Might have even lead to both players folding, which is a good result also.

On the flop, what are you trying to accomplish with this bet? What hands are you trying to get to fold out here? A bet of $30 here feels to me like mindless button clicking/praying to win the pot.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:35 PM   #8
WehrmatsWormhat
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
No. But it was my first hand and I didn't want to get too pot-committed with an unpaired hand. Maybe calling is better for this reason. I agree 3-bet could have been bigger though.
Whether it's the first hand or 1000th, it shouldn't really matter. You're never going to get a fold from that 3bet, so either flat or raise bigger.
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:32 PM   #9
johnnyBuz
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Was this a straddled pot? Limp -> $17 seems like large sizing even for a 1/2 game. I'm still 3! like 80% of the time here to $55 but it doesn't hurt to have some calls here as long as we plan to steal some pots postflop on 3 straight / 3 flush boards.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:27 PM   #10
Trey5Suited
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Re: AK suited misses flop

This is the kind of thing I struggle with in 1/2. Your $300 buy-in seems reasonably deep relative to the blinds, and 3-betting AK seems pretty standard without having a good idea of your opponent's range. However, preflop raising in 1-2 is always just so off the hook that it turns what looks like somewhat deep stacks into short stacks, especially with the cancer of straddling.

You'd want to raise that initial $17 to a much more reasonable $55 in this spot, but when you get called, miss the flop, decide to C-bet $60 (more if you go 3-ways to the flop like in your 1st example) and don't manage to shake everyone else off the hand...now what? Due to the crazy initial preflop raise the pot has been blown way out of proportion and you're put in a spot to have over 1/3 of your $300 stack committed with your c-bet.

We're now left with the decision to c/f after having committed so much, or shoving the turn. Seriously, casinos should just remove all games smaller than 2/5 if the preflop raising is going to put us into that betting structure anyway, except without the $1000 stacks.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:34 PM   #11
HawkesDave
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Re: AK suited misses flop

After a $17 raise, a $300 stack still has 141BBs. After a $55 3b, a $300 stack still has 122.5BBs.

...and I'm not sure what makes you think a $17 puts it into 2/5 territory, when a normal 2/5 raise is $20 or $25 even without limpers ahead.

Sure, $17 is on the high side, but that's not a standard raise, that's usually one of two things: a guy betting big for value on a fishy table OOP, or a guy who's just afraid to play OOP with anything in the top part of his range (and wants a caller, but not 3 of them).
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:43 PM   #12
QuadJ
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Re: AK suited misses flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey5Suited View Post
This is the kind of thing I struggle with in 1/2. Your $300 buy-in seems reasonably deep relative to the blinds, and 3-betting AK seems pretty standard without having a good idea of your opponent's range. However, preflop raising in 1-2 is always just so off the hook that it turns what looks like somewhat deep stacks into short stacks, especially with the cancer of straddling.
This is a common problem at 1/2. A lot of book advice and online advice aimed at higher stakes is misguided at 1/2 because of the huge preflop raises that still get called multiway. SPR on the flop is usually a better guide to what you should do. In this hand the Hero's SPR on the flop is already < 3. Either bet and commit or give up. Multiway with no back door draws just giving up is best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey5Suited View Post
We're now left with the decision to c/f after having committed so much, or shoving the turn. Seriously, casinos should just remove all games smaller than 2/5 if the preflop raising is going to put us into that betting structure anyway, except without the $1000 stacks.
These games are actually great you just have to adjust to playing them. Give up on LAG play, either play TAG or TAP depending on stack sizes and situation and wait till you have value. At 1/2 there are times when I raise preflop with AK, get called multi way, have the flop come out QJT and just bet/bet/shove and get people with AQ thinking their pair might be best on the river. The only real hard part at these games is adjusting to the current situation (which can vary widely depending on stack sizes and players) and putting up with boredom.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:35 PM   #13
Trey5Suited
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Re: AK suited misses flop

The 2/5 statement was just me venting. Not only isn't it fun to play as epic tight as these donkey filled tables suggest, but it often isn't profitable either since it can become obvious quite quickly to even the most unaware that you haven't toughed your chips in awhile.

Smaller raises relative to the blinds means more maneuverability relative to the stack sizes. This is lower variance poker, and at lower stakes it means a table of loose passive and weak tight players hopefully. I can play more hands and play them with more variety so it's more enjoyable poker. Folks like to ask "are you playing for fun or profit?" but from my experience they're often one in the same. Give me a table of loose calling stations who pay us off or weak tights we can run over any day of the week over turtling up against half a table of aggro donkeys where I'm either sittin bored or getting involved in a spot where I feel like I just converted the poker table into a slot machine.

Ok, rant over..
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