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AK sick spot vs TAG old man AK sick spot vs TAG old man

07-22-2014 , 01:08 PM
Hero ($700): Playing TAG winning and showing down with monsters with ONE exception where I 3bet light on the button with Q5dd and won a monster pot when I caught trips on the river heads up. I am 99% sure the V in this hand did not see this hand though because he is pretty new to the table. I have been very card dead before these 2 hands, and when I raised to $15 in the first hand the one thinking guy at the table said "his first raise in like 2 hours, I'm out of this one".

V ($850): 60s asian man, playing TAG, new to the table and running hot. He folded 97dd when he had the flush and the river brought the 4th diamond on the board and the guy he was up against went in for his remaining $60 (pot was like 250). He seems like the type to fast play his big hands but also knows when to fold in obvious spots. Do not take him for the type to bluff.

Hand before this hand: I raised from MP with KQo to $15 and V who is on my immediate left 3bet to $35 and I folded and he took it down pre.

Hand (very next hand): limped in 2 places to me in the HJ with AK and raise to $15 and V immediately 3bets me to $35 and I say "you're gonna 3bet me again?" and he says "I have the same exact hand as last hand. Twice in a row". The way he said it I 100% believed he was telling the truth. Folded to me and I call.

Flop ($76): K95

I check (fearing he has AA/KK and to see what he does -- perhaps I should've led here?). He checks behind.

Turn ($76): J

I check (fearing he just turned a set since I have now put him exclusively on KK [which I think TAG old men do check to be tricky when they have the total nuts on the flop], QQ, or JJ. I really doubt he's the type to trickily play AA this way). He bets $50. I call.

River ($176): A

I check. He confidently bets $100.

Hero? I turn my hand up and everyone at the table thinks I'm slowrolling by seriously debating folding. I ask him if he will show if I fold and he says no. I know I am now only beating AQ or QQ which he'd be turning his hand into a bluff with (which I don't think he's the type to do). I also feel there's a 0% chance he is ever cold 3betting with QT from the type of the player he is. I feel like I'm beat or I'm calling to chop (and I don't even feel like I'm really chopping because I don't think he has it in him to check Top-top on the flop)? Is this just MUBS?

Last edited by Havax; 07-22-2014 at 01:17 PM.
AK sick spot vs TAG old man Quote
07-22-2014 , 01:16 PM
You should have b/f turn
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07-22-2014 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Havax
Hand (very next hand): limped in 2 places to me in the HJ with AK and raise to $15 and V immediately 3bets me to $35 and I say "you're gonna 3bet me again?" and he says "I have the same exact hand as last hand. Twice in a row". The way he said it I 100% believed he was telling the truth. Folded to me and I call.
Doesn't your casino have a rule against talking about your actions/hands when there are more than two players in the hand?
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07-22-2014 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain
Doesn't your casino have a rule against talking about your actions/hands when there are more than two players in the hand?
The speaking interaction didn't happen until everyone else folded and we were heads up.
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07-22-2014 , 01:47 PM
I'm confused. You ranged him as JJ, QQ, KK, or AA, he has position, and he is capable of folding hands. So why did we call preflop?
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07-22-2014 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrindPokerAllDay
I'm confused. You ranged him as JJ, QQ, KK, or AA, he has position, and he is capable of folding hands. So why did we call preflop?
Am I really supposed to fold getting 2.5:1 on my money vs a guy I might be flipping with and will play fit or fold after the flop? I'm just supposed to give it to him?
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07-22-2014 , 02:19 PM
Why wouldn't you? I think this hand is a perfect illustration of why you should fold if his range is JJ+
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07-22-2014 , 02:29 PM
Haha cold 3bet.

Fold pre. Check flop. Lead turn. Fold river.
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07-22-2014 , 02:58 PM
Avi- Succinct and correct. I second this motion.
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07-22-2014 , 03:37 PM
Can't stand folding here pre or on any street but damn if V is that tight to fold a flush on a monotone flop then I "guess" you have to.

x/f flop.

B/f turn.
AK sick spot vs TAG old man Quote
07-22-2014 , 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Havax
Am I really supposed to fold getting 2.5:1 on my money vs a guy I might be flipping with and will play fit or fold after the flop? I'm just supposed to give it to him?
If you range him that tight, yes. Not to mention you are OOP.

You realize the fact that he plays fit or fold is an argument to fold? It means you won't see a penny if you hit the flop and he has QQ/JJ.
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07-22-2014 , 04:09 PM
First of all you aren't flipping against that range. You might be closer to flipping if you got to see all five cards.

You will be seeing 3 cards. OOP.

He will be seeing >3 cards. IP.

Second, a live villain's range is insanely tight the second time they 3bet in a short period. Unless it's a drunk spewtard or wannabe hoodie wearing wizard, just fold OOP and own them.
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07-22-2014 , 04:16 PM
[ ] sick spot

Is this 1/2 or 2/5?
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07-22-2014 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Havax
Am I really supposed to fold getting 2.5:1 on my money vs a guy I might be flipping with and will play fit or fold after the flop? I'm just supposed to give it to him?
You flopped tptk and still tried to pot control three streets. Folding pre is clearly better unless you can outplay him post. Bet fold $35 on turn. Check calling makes no sense. If he has you beat you're check calling a bigger bet. If you have him beat, he checks behind and gets a free card. His range looks like AA, KK, JJ and Ak. Stove it
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07-22-2014 , 04:29 PM
Didn't read the comments but this feels like a snapcall on the river as played. You totally induced this action. And your probably ahead of his valuebetting range as from your description it sounds like he bets thin in the other hands. We are significantly underrepped.
And I would have said "Oh really, well my hand is significantly better than last" and then 4bet this punk.
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07-22-2014 , 04:36 PM
am I missing something. Villain is an aggressive T.A.G not a nit right? He has shown he's capable of folding in the 4th card flush in the river. We block aa,kk, and he has shown an ability to fold, and just 3! us again. In this circumstance a flat doesn't play well against competent villain OOP heads up. Is the description that he is a nutpeddling nit, why does everyone think he is so narrow. Calling makes it hard to extract value when we hit oop and also we are going to be forced to fold to a cbet the majority of the time. So seems like a 4! or fold. Personally I prefer a 4bet given these conditions. he folds a flush on the river for a small bet so maybe he is folding tt-qq to the 4b, we have fold equity for sure if not to the 4! on a cbet follow through on certain textures.
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07-23-2014 , 09:41 AM
I tank called. He had JJ.
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07-23-2014 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Havax
I tank called. He had JJ.
I think about it this way. Why not 4 bet preflop to $100 instead of check calling $100 on the river? Now you can see how serious he is and lose the same amount of money without getting all confused with the flop/turn/river. You also bring the option of him folding right there.
*Find his fold threshold and punish him! He folds with anything but AA/KK.
*I would have dove all in on that flop, if I played it like you did pre-flop. Got AA or KK? Good for you! Rebuy!
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07-23-2014 , 10:16 AM
Wow, I would have never considered folding pre in this spot, but that's why I suck.

I don't agree with x/f on the flop though. You're only losing to AA/KK and chopping with AK. You're blocking all three of those hands and if he's taggy, surely he cbets his whole range here? Is he a super nit or a tag?

OTT as played, I think b/f is good.
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07-23-2014 , 03:38 PM
I agree with the others and I would have 4 bet/folded pre. Its pretty simple actually, if you 4 bet, he shoves, insta fold. Now you know his range is KK+ maybe AK.

I think calling pre is the worst choice for you have know idea what to do if you flop a K. (TPTK) I would either 4bet or fold to this 3bet. If you think you can outplay him 4 bet especially since your out of position. If not, fold.
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07-23-2014 , 04:16 PM
I like leading the flop for $50 as somewhat of a blocking bet. It's more likely to give you useful information than a check.

The way you played this, I think c/c turn and c/c river is fine. I'm not surprised if he shows up with AA, KK, or JJ, but I wouldn't sweat it too much with top two.

Also, try to resist the urge to show your cards. Unless you have incited clear tells by doing it in the past, there is little to be gained. Letting everyone know that you're thinking about folding that hand gives them the impression that you're either a very good player or a nit. If they think you're good, they may shy away from you and be reluctant to pay you off. If they think you're a nit, they may be more likely to bluff you.
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07-23-2014 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ck17va
I think about it this way. Why not 4 bet preflop to $100 instead of check calling $100 on the river? Now you can see how serious he is and lose the same amount of money without getting all confused with the flop/turn/river. You also bring the option of him folding right there.
This is a good point.
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