Hey guys first time poster in this thread and hopefully the first of many posts for me. I'm a long time rec poker player who is looking to take the game more seriously by reading books and discussing hand histories so here I am. Since this is my first post in this section, please let me know if there is anything wrong with the formatting of how I posted my hand.

Playing 1/2 NL and my stack size is roughly around $360 and villain has me covered. Villain appears to be a competent reg as I've played with him once before briefly....he's a young Asian guy. No hand history between us, but he has seen me 3bet then jam on another opponent who I had covered with AK suited , which will come into play in this hand. He's also seen me raise pre with hands like 34 for $8 from the cutoff, so he may view me as somewhat loose. On the other side I've seen this guy call down with bottom pair like it was nothing. In any case, not a lot of hand history.

Hero: UTG w/$360
Villain: MP2 w/ ~$500

I have AK and raise to $15. My initial raises have been all over the place from $6 to $12, but I had not put one out for $15 at this point. Villain doesnt think too long and raises to $45. My thought process at this point is that he has a big pocket pair and because I have AK, I put him specifically on QQ... Being a rec that has some idea of hand equity, I know I'm behind but I figure it's not by much maybe like 52% to 48% (turns out it's more like 57/43).

At this point I decided I wasnt folding and I wasnt calling but re-raised to $135 with the thought process that I was playing this like I had AA or KK. He thinks for a good while I'd say around a minute before going all in.

So at this point there is effectively $510 in the pot now (I think I got that right) and I have $210 left. My question at this point can I fold getting 2.5-1? Obviously there is some chance (good chance?) here that I'm already crushed as villain could have AA or KK.

What would you do?

I mean, i dont think a stackoff pre in this spot with AK with closer to 200 BB is gonna be very profitable.

You opend for 15 pre UTG (unusual big sizing for you if i understand you correctly). No callers or dead money in between, and still villain is 3 betting your UTG open. At this point i put him on a very strong range right off the bat for a myriad of reasons- but just due to the lack of 3 betting in general in 1/2 is reason enough to be concerned here where this hand is going.

This deep i think the best play is to just dump the hand really and say goodbye to the 15 bucks. AK holds serious reverse implied odds when we are talking around 200 BB stacks and we are likely up against a very strong range.

As played when you 4 bet, and he still doesent care and 5 bet jams on you its time to fold. His range is KK/AA exclusively. You are toasted, easy as that.

Had he seen you raise those hands in that session or previously? If it wasn’t in the past hour he probably doesn’t even remember it.

Typically you’re not going to see anyone 5bet <KK ever in a 1-2 game who isn’t wild. Especially for 170BB. Yes, it’s less likely that he has Kk/AA from a combo standpoint but it’s not impossible. If you think he can shove QQ then it’s a math problem.

QQ= 6 combos
KK= 3 combos
AA= 3 combos
AK= 9 combos

42% vs. 29% of his range
30% vs. 14% of his range
50% vs. 43% of his range
6% vs. 14% of his range

I’m on my phone but my mind says you’re somewhere in the 35-40% range overall against that bunch. So call but don’t be happy about it.

If he won’t 5 bet QQ or AK you fold.

You need to make this decision before you 4 bet. That’s the real lesson here. You should rarely be surprised in a hand. You should already have thought about what you want to have happen. 4 bet/fold is very rarely a good plan.

Sorry to ask such a newb question:

Why cannot Hero just call the 45 and see a flop?

Mainly because:

1) We will whiff the flop 2 out of 3 times- wich means we will be setting 45 bucks on fire a big percentage of the time.

2)We will be out of position in a bloated preflop pot where 150 BB+ stacks quickly will be in play, not a good spot at all to be in.

3) AK as mentioned holds some serious reverse implied odds in this spot, because how 3 bettors range is constructed- with loads of KK/AA in it. Wich means we will be in a world of hurt if the flop comes K high or A high for us, and if villain was indeed 3 betting us with a hand like QQ it will be hard to win money postflop anyway when we hit top pair.


If you gauge villains 3 bet range to be tight enough in this spot (wich i certainly do when hero opens big UTG and no dead money from callers i between), and taking stacksizes into consideration- its wise to just let this one go preflop.

Wow. Well said. Doh, I have a lot to learn. Thank you for the informative post.

No problem man, i believe never stop learning and never stop making reflections is one of the keys for every pokerplayer who wants to be winning longterm

Thanks for all the informative feedback. Yes all hand history was within the previous hour. I 4bet believing this player could think at a high enough level to fold Qq or less. And i had full intentions of shoving if he 5 bet. Which was not a good thought process. So yeah lesson learned this play will not work at 1/2 and from what everyone says i should have just folded after his 3bet. Also good point about not being able to extract further if he has qq and A or K hits the flop. He had JJ by the way.

Did he show you that or did he just say he had that?

Next time you can range him better. Decide after the 3 bet whether you’re going to the felt with it. If not then fold early. Never 4 bet fold in this spot.

I think folding AK OOP here after a 3bet is almost standard at 1/2.

1. Don't 4! fold, with these stack sizes.

2. Don't base your raise size on the strength of your hand.

Actually I disagree with that last bit. Go ahead and raise based on your hand strength. Hardly anybody is paying enough attention to j ownwhat it means. I do but I’m not your typical 1/2 player. Most can’t remember their own raise sizes.

Maybe I just play too many tournaments, but anyone who folds AK to a 3-bet is welcome in my game any time. My choice is between calling and 4-betting, but I lean towards just a call, to see the flop. AP, I think you have to call now. Yes, you could be up against AA or KK , but don't think QQ, JJ, and TT won't do this also at this level, especially if V truly sees hero as loose.Also could be AK, AQs, or some other random bluff hand.

BTW, if V noticed the unusually large pfr size, that could be in play here too. Unusually large pfr sizes are usually 2nd tier pair hands (JJ, TT, 99) that are scared to see a flop. This tell works alot of the time for me- if I see someone make a raise larger than I'm used to seeing them make I will put them on a scared JJ or TT and be much more likely to try and blast them off the hand at some point.

He showed it as he won the hand after we both went all in.....

1. I didnt fold, we both ended up all in


2.I dont. I vary my raise size depending on several factors. It just so happened I chose $15 at the higher end of by raise sizing for this particular raise.

How much better can I range him? I put him specifically on QQ (he had JJ), I 4 bet him with AK as though I had AA or KK (I guess you'd call this a bluff???) and was prepared to go all in if he did, which I did. As I stated previously, I only would do it with this specific type player. He seemed to be an experienced reg who I believed was capable of folding QQ to a 4 bet. I wouldnt have tried to pull this manuever with your average 1/2 player.

My mistake in this particular situation was considering that this player would fold to a 4 bet as he didnt.

It’s usually a mistake to assume someone will fold fold QQ to a 4 bet without previous history. It’s really rare for them to 5 bet it. What I meant was now you can put things like JJ in his 3 bet/5 bet GII range for sure. That changes the equation quite a bit. And since we know that’s in his range we’re not 4 bet/GII as a bluff, it’s for value as those lower combos sway the equation much closer to 50/50 with dead money.

Your original question was what to do once he shoves. That shouldn’t have been the question. The question should have been should I 4 bet/call a shove or fold to his 3 bet.

In most cases at 1/2 OOP 170bb deep vs. a still relatively unknown the answer is fold. Now you know for this guy the answer is get all the chips in.

Sorry for being stupid here but are you saying in the future faced with the exact same situation vs same opponent I should proceed as I did even though I'll be behind and he's shown the inability to fold JJ to a 4 bet? I'm thinking the exact opposite that I should fold to a 3 bet in this situation again vs this opponent

I would just call the 45 3! there. Why is that too nitty? You're too deep to waste a stack when you put him on QQ which may be KK.

I would fold to the 3-bet myself because villains are SO passive with 3-bets at this level. If they think you open wide they will probably just call with some surprisingly strong holdings.

Step #1 is to stop putting him on a single hand. You need to consider his entire range in this situation and compare your hand against that entire range. If you decide he could 3 bet you with QQ, you can't eliminate that he could do this with AA or KK either. Once you plug those into an equity calculator, you'll see that you were in pretty bad shape.

Step #2 is being honest with yourself. You put him on QQ because you didn't want to give up the hand. Lot's of rec players do this. I'll guarantee that if you had QQ and he 3 bet you, you would have put him on AK. Being able to look at a hand dispassionately is one of the necessary steps towards being a long term winning player.

You make some good points and I will definitely take that advice. But I put him on QQ because I had AK, making it less likely he had AA or KK. So that is why I turned my hand into a bluff. Obviously, he could of had AA or KK. Turns out this time I was basically right as he had JJ.

And you're right I knew I was in pretty bad shape. But like I said in my original post, I thought this player has capable of folding QQ to a 4 bet. Not a normal move I would make against your typical 1/2 NL player.

1. There's been a lot of good responses to your post regarding Villain's range and the math. Also, I'll avoid your PFR topic as philosophies vary about same size vs. varying size vs. etc.

2. Not that I play much of higher stakes, but I do find that in 1/2 & 1/3 games, you're not gonna get a lot of play at the upper end of sophistication, i.e. serious 3B! (more than just min-2B! followed by min-3B!) and then folding to a 4B!...a very small portion...and stack sizes aren't deep enough for Villain to have to super-tank it. If you're both 300+ BB deep different things can happen, but that's a whole other thread.

3. Villain's 3B! sizing relative to your effective stack doesn't set-up well for any number of scenarios. You're not deep enough (relative to his 3B! sizing) that you can likely avoid getting most/all of it in at some point in the rest of the hand if you elect to play, and you'll most likely be very much guessing when it does go in.

4. Unless you think Villain is targeting you for isolation plays, the likeliness is that his holding is well within upper range. A better question is can you more confidently and quickly narrow his range post-flop? And how confident are you in your own post-flop play? Your confidence in these areas should drive the proportionality with which you're willing to call the 3B! from OOP and then endure same throughout the rest of the hand.