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AK facing big river bet AK facing big river bet

01-10-2016 , 05:02 PM
3/5 500 spread limit game. I have about $1450 and V covers. V hasn't been at the table long but my read based on demeanor and stack size and the few hands he has played is that he plays a LAG style and is willing to mix it up in non- standard spots. He has open raised a lot and liberally called raises and three bets. Seems unafraid to bluff and use his big stack.

I think I have a pretty tight image although the game had recently went six handed and I have been opening a lot of pots. V has called three or four times and folded to my flop bet.

I'm two off the button. V is on the button. One player limps, I make it 25 with A K V calls and the other player calls.

Flop ($75) is K 6 4

First player checks. I make it 55, V thinks awhile and raises to $130. First player folds. I tank for a bit and then call. My thinking was two fold 1) I'm pretty sure I'm good here and I think he is making a move after a number of hands where he folded to my c-bet on the flop. If I raise he will fold but he may continue with his line if I slow down and 2) if I'm wrong and he has a set or a weird two pair I can try and keep the pots small.

Turn ($340) is Q

Following my thinking above, I check and V bets $130. This small bet confused me but given the money in the pot already I called intending to reevaluate on the river.

River ($600) J I check and V bets $450. Hero?

Comments on all streets welcome
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-10-2016 , 05:20 PM
Where do you range him after he just calls PF? Seems VERY wide to me. So,,, you wanna play for 100BB+ with TPTK hand?

edit:
Also, raise turn?

Last edited by King Spew; 01-10-2016 at 05:28 PM.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-10-2016 , 05:30 PM
A check raise on a dry board is a bit fishy but I generally find when they follow up with turn and river bets they have 2-pair+

The fact that he could have backed into a flush or straight while bluffing with a hand like Axdd AT T9 makes a river call pretty dangerous. Question is, does V realise that and is taking advantage of the runout to make a big river bluff? His flop and turn sizing is callable enough but then he launches quite a hefty bet on the river like he is really putting the pressure on to get a fold.

I make a lot of mistakes in these spots convincing myself they're bluffing so I think I fold to river bet. I might ask him what he has before I fold though - try and get something out of him...

Last edited by Ragequit99; 01-10-2016 at 05:35 PM.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-10-2016 , 05:32 PM
Kingspew - presumably you're r/f on turn?
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-10-2016 , 05:32 PM
make it 950 and show the king of diamonds
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01-10-2016 , 05:42 PM
I prob three bet the flop.
As played, Q is a terrible card and J only compounds the issue. I think V has KQ and you're beat. The small turn bet is to keep you in the hand. The river ship is bc he's pretty sure his holding, top two pair, is good.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-10-2016 , 05:42 PM
Based on villain description I call but against most llsnl villains you are no good here. Many of the worse K combos that call pf have improved by the river and I'm folding otr a lot. I may look up villain based on your read(provided it is accurate). You may need more HH with villain to justify that call though.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-10-2016 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99
Kingspew - presumably you're r/f on turn?
of course....though I really present option as a question. I have a feeling if we are trying to get to showdown, we have to consider that we have a river bet to call as well.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-11-2016 , 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiffle
make it 950 and show the king of diamonds
YES!
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-11-2016 , 06:50 AM
On such a dry board I will usually check the flop OOP. Don't build a pot OOP. Unless you have good IO.

As played, I get away from the hand on the flop. About the best that can happen is he has 57. I'm fine folding there.

If you decide to continue, you can't just play passively for the remaining streets. But I don't think I would turn my hand into a bluff here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiffle
make it 950 and show the king of diamonds
^ This is a completely transparent fish move.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-11-2016 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadlyBeaten
^ This is a completely transparent fish move.
It's so crazy, it just might work.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-11-2016 , 02:24 PM
Your description of V definitely contradicts itself. If he called your raise pre and then folded to a cbet 3-4 times then he's definitely not LAG. This is pretty tough without more information on him. He could easily be the type of fish that plays a ton of hands pre and tries to bingo flops and folds when he misses based on your description thus far. I think this whole hand depends on whether or not you think he's going to play back at you and is capable of making big bluffs after the flop.

I think bet/call flop to evaluate turn is fine since there's not much he can have on this flop.

Turn is pretty tricky. He could've picked up some equity on his bluffs with a second diamond. With 40 2pr/set combos, we would only need around 12 combos of hands we're beating getting around 3.5 to 1. If he's capable of having KJ or KT here then that's already enough not including if he could be continuing bluffs with diamonds. I think I call here and evaluate river.

River is a pretty trivial fold IMO. The Jd is a horrible card. Now we don't really beat anything except like 57 no diamonds and complete air.
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-11-2016 , 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by water69
River is a pretty trivial fold IMO. The Jd is a horrible card. Now we don't really beat anything except like 57 no diamonds and complete air.
I think this is right. It's been bugging me since it happened particularly because I won. I tanked for way too long and just felt that this player knew exactly what I had and resolved to bet me off my hand. it was nothing more than a hero call, which I think was foolish but ultimately correct. I called and he insta mucked saying nice call.
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01-12-2016 , 06:20 AM
^ I wouldn't say it was foolish - the ingredients were there to make you think it was bluff. In my experience though I lose these hero calls more than I win them. Over the years I have become a lot more selective of who and when I hero call but I still do it when I feel strongly enough about it. Itis a balance though - to catch all the bluffs, with my reading ability, requires me to pay off too many value bets. Therefore I just pick the absolute best spots for it just to show the table I am capable of hero calling in order to slow them down in bluffing me.

For my taste though this board run out was just too dangerous, like water69 said. It is OK to fold while suspecting you are being bluffed a good portion of the time when the run out is particularly awful - there will be better spots than this to catch a bluffy player.
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01-12-2016 , 07:45 AM
your flop cbet size generally too big

obv call flop/evaluate

his turn size pretty much nullifies 2p, sets imo, as those hands are obv gonna want to set up a larger river pot for himself vs your apparent TP+. it would appear he is setting his price here w/wide assortment of bd's, 57o, maybe 35o if he's truly a lagtard. he likely didn't want to bet larger and risk a c/r from you, losing his ability to continue w/draw

river - flip a coin. if it's heads i call if it's tails i still cawl depending on age, race, posture, table talk, etc
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01-12-2016 , 07:54 AM
^ yes I agree the turn bet sizing is the give away V doesn't have a monster. By river he easily can do though. I think if OP isn't making a lot of hero calls and gets >50% right then his call on river here was pretty good reading. If he's making tons of hero calls then this is same as a stopped clock being right twice a day
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01-12-2016 , 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadlyBeaten
On such a dry board I will usually check the flop OOP. Don't build a pot OOP. Unless you have good IO.

As played, I get away from the hand on the flop. About the best that can happen is he has 57. I'm fine folding there.

If you decide to continue, you can't just play passively for the remaining streets. But I don't think I would turn my hand into a bluff here.

^ This is a completely transparent fish move.
fish arent capable of this line
AK facing big river bet Quote
01-12-2016 , 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by art_vandelay
V hasn't been at the table long but my read based on demeanor and stack size and the few hands he has played is that he plays a LAG style ......

I think I have a pretty tight image although the game had recently went six handed and I have been opening a lot of pots.
Your read of villain seems to be spot on, but you forget that his image of you isn't based on your whole session, only the time he has been at the table. He probably sees you as a fellow LAG, since you have been opening hands fairly often. His playback on the flop makes sense, as does his poor bluff on the river, if he read you for trying to bully him and having missed your hand and shown the weakness you did when you checked the turn.

His flop bet is crude playback. On such a dry board, he would definitely go for another street of value if he had 2 pr or better. His bet was meant to fold you out of the hand if you missed, AQ/AJ etc.. It probably confused him that you called.
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