What does ‘building pots’ mean? If you have AA 1000bb deep you are still going to want to 4b it and ‘build a pot’. You don’t just ignore value on a street prior to the river bc of depth. You might alter strategy 1000bb deep, but that doesn’t include ‘non pot building’ because of position.

But you weren’t arguing with his position at all, you were questioning his right to post his position. It’s an ad hominem attack.

It’s helpful to have people posting divergent opinions and gg must be one of the most valuable posters in the forum for exactly that reason.

No, the exact same argument applies for AA, imo. If we're deep enough that a 4bet won't set up trivial stack off situations and still leaves a bunch of stacks / streets behind, then there's no way I'm going to 4bet just cuz "I haz AA" and turn my hand face up deep.

GbutotherscandowhattheywantG

As per above, this is an argument for widening your 4 bet range not eliminating it

That's definitely one way of disguising your range. The other method is the opposite: have no raising / reraising range at all when deep (especially OOP). And in keeping with my idea of not building big pots against difficult players, it's pretty obvious the method I would choose.

Gbutthat'smeG

Does anyone consider 4b $300/call a jam

and

or

4b $300–> jam whatever flops

^
I think that looks less than what we want it to look like would look like.
Would you really play AA/KK like that?

I'm not sure if call flatting a 3! With AA, but I'd say you should 4! Close to always because "you haz teh AA".

Maybe entertain the idea of trapping this type of villain...

The only reason I can think of not 4! AA is if you never 4! Anything else. Even then it's sketchy.

Just curious and not being crass, but would you fold AA pre to a jam deep?

4!>>>>call>>fold(rack up/seat/table change)

Honestly, if you don’t wanna play this hands OOP against this guy, fold, request a meal button, and ask to be put on a table change list isn’t a bad overall idea.
I don’t even mean this in a scathing way at all. This is probably the worst kind of player to have a couple seats to your left.

4bet.

Flatting here with AKo OOP is a leak and lighting money on fire against a player like this.

If he sees you won't play back at his 3bets with AK, he will relentlessly 3bet you knowing you won't 4bet unless you have Aces or Kings - in which case, he can easily fold.

Also, if we flat, what is the plan on any flop we miss (the majority of them). Are we check/folding? Or check/calling, and end up leveling ourselves with Ace high?

I really struggled in these spots as I began to play deeper, and my default would be to call. That led to check/folding, likely many times with the best of it.

Understanding we are ahead of his range and 4betting both for value and to open up our 4betting range is important.

Lol do you really worry that much about 1 player at a 9 handed table that it makes you want to run away?
And what is the problem with calling a 3 bet oop with ak? Calling here is just fine.
Play some heads up and learn to play oop.
The guy showed a sq with a4 earlier... let him do it again and flop an ace and get him for a bunch of his stack if not all of it
Even on a lot of boards that he decides to check back I am still gonna get a large portion of his stack with turn and river bombs.
I am also going to bluff catch him and make money that way too.


And to the guy above who wants to 4 bet to $300 and shove any flop
This is an awful plan of attack.
It's a good way to get it in on the flop with terrible equity for a 600bb pot
If you're gonna 4 bet make it $220 or something maybe even 200 and play postflop. It's ok to put money in deep and fold when you realize postflop that your hand is now no good.
Shoving and praying is the option that let's villian play perfectly vs you.
You're gonna want to 4 bet bluff sometimes right? You gonna make it $300 with your bluffs too? And then just shove and pray with a7 suited? Or kqos?
Or are you just never gonna 4 bet bluff?

No. Take it easy.
I have said twice that I think 4! is best.
I suggested $220-230.

I am saying that if OP doesn’t want to play OOP against this guy, folding and table/seat changing isn’t a bad idea. It might be the best idea if he isn’t used to dealing with this kind of player on his left while 300bb deep.

That’s all I’m saying. Breathe, relax, exhale.

Why are you telling me to breathe and relax? I'm not worked up or upset.
I think you're a nice guy. I just think telling someone to fold ak preflop and leave the table is bad advice.

Just seemed like you thought it was the most ridiculous thing ever or something, which it isn’t. It’s not advice that will help anyone improve at playing in these situations, but it’s advice that would potentially save 300bb and help build a bankroll.
It really depends on how OP feels about variance and creating/risking roll. No doubt, imo the most +EV option is 4! I agree.
But building a bankroll is essential to having the ability to take the variance of getting stacked in these spots sometimes. So sometimes doing one before the other is important. I think flatting is really only barely better than folding here.

Just for the record: i am fully aware that this kind of player is one of the worst to have on my left-especially when playing deep.

I am also quite used to play deep, i am no stranger to 300 BB poker. Main reason i made this thread is for a line-check, and to hear different posters thoughts wich i find interesting.Sometimes i see it as a challenge to continue to play,even if the seat "sucks". I find that its good for my game and my development as a player to not always rack up or seat/table change because of a bad seat.

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For sure, totally agree. Only way to improve at dealing with these spots is to deal with these spots in the most optimal way possible.
4! is the optimal way to deal with this situation and this hand. Sizing should be the only discussion point imo. I think $220-240 is the window personally.

How did you play it at the time (if you’re alright with moving on at this point)?

Yeah,its fine. The discussion have been going on for a while.

I ended up making it $300 and planned to bet/shove good flops if he was calling. Dont like the big sizing though looking back at it,as i think it likely generates too many folds- and isolates me against the stronger parts of his range. I think i like the smaller sizings suggested in this thread, in order to force him to see a flop with his lighter 3 bets. Wich can potenially gets us in some real good moneymaker spots post.

He folded though, so hand ended there this time.

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Right on.
Yeah, a bit smaller is better, but taking it down here was better than just flatting.
I used to be in the camp that would rarely 4! AK, and I think my game has improved a lot since adding it to my 4! range, but there’s also times to let it go to 3!’s. This isn’t one of those times though.
Glad you took it down.

4bet/call 150bbs effective. 220-240 depending on your regular OOP 4bet size (I prefer 240 here). Remember we want to ensure this also looks like the top of our range so size the same. Oversized 4bets (300/call 300/jam any flop post above) is just turning our hand face up and makes us easy to play correctly against.

Expect to win this a lot pre vs Villain as described.

Flatting seems worse and if you are not happy to get in 150bbs in this sort of situation with AK then you should look to jump in a different game.

Folding pre (although pretty sure earlier posts have no discounted this) is the worst option.

As I've said earlier, if a reraise (whether it be a 3bet or a 4bet or whatever) is going to setup a trivial and comfortable stack off situation postflop, then fine, let's do that.

But if we're reraising and at the same time turning our hand face up OOP to a difficult player with lots of stacks / streets in play, it's pretty horrible and playing right into his wheelhouse.

And of course I wouldn't fold AA to a jam deep. I've managed my goal of creating a trivial commitment spot (one which I was likely fine with creating an SPR of getting it easily in by the turn, but getting it in by the flop is even better, and preflop is a dream spot).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Gil, I'm fine with your sizing. A smaller sizing creates a 1.5 SPR; your sizing creates a 1 SPR. In both cases, we've committed our stack so there's no difference in that sense. They're also both huge bets (in the sense of stack committing) and 4bets at that, so unlikely there is going to be much difference in calling frequency for any hands. I prefer the latter as we typically get in the bulk of our stack as the fave, plus leaves us as a very reasonable PSB shove on the flop instead of an awkward 1.5 PSB spot. If he manages to fold a pair on the flop when we whiff, great, otherwise the PSB shove gives us 2:1 to hit our 3:1 overs (not bad when you factor in FE).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Enough with the “trivial stackoff” tripe jfc

Is this thread done or can we continue exploring

Like

Clicking it back to $160

Or does this work with a bigger stack and yes I’ll be 4b clickbacking with my entire range so I don’t turn my cards face up forcing villain to play perfectly

Does anyone want to entertain discuss this or is this thread complete