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Old 04-14-2019, 10:55 PM   #26
feel wrath
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
All options available including fold.

Personally not interested in over-adjusting by 4b and barreling off a pile, I really would expect him to fold to a 4b at a pretty high freq and that might my preferred line. But again, I'm not making a stand, get called, and have to maneuver post like a champ to make money.

No need to start 4b wider than this hand.

If you call, you're really just slotting your hand in one of those spots where you hope to make a pair and call down w the hand he is repping. It happens, but without the suit it makes things awfully meh.

Folding is certainly within reason, not too nitty. I'd never release the suited variety, even though I do tend to overvalue playability.
so you don't think it's too nitty to fold AK to a 3 bet on the button from a 3bet happy villain who has already shown A3ss as a 3bet?
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:57 PM   #27
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by barney big nuts View Post
the prob with 4 betting this deep is villian knows exactly what you have and can play v well vs that range postflop if he flats the 4 bet
Hero will be capped to over pairs and some suited ace kings while villian will have all kinds of hidden two pairs, straights, sets, combo draws and god only knows what else
Villian is going to be winning massive pots more imo for this reason
It's easy to play in position deep when you can put the guy 4 betting you on qq-aa and some aks.
Now if hero has a bunch of 4 bet bluffs it's a different story but that doesn't sound like it's the case here
this is an argument for 4 betting wider, not tighter
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:00 PM   #28
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Why does everyone wanna 3x 4 bet against this three bet? We raised UTG. Our 4 bet range is going to be narrow and powerful. I think AQs snap folds to 240.
^ Weíre MP

I wouldnít expect AQs to snap fold but even if he does we still scoop $116 rake free which is a very good result. The odds of AK vs AQ flopping an ace are slim.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:06 PM   #29
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
^ Weíre MP



I wouldnít expect AQs to snap fold but even if he does we still scoop $116 rake free which is a very good result. The odds of AK vs AQ flopping an ace are slim.

Iíd rather not care as much about our hand as our range. Like Obv taking it down is great and we should be picking a size that gives us a chance to do it (which is why Iím not down for like 180 or something crazy), but I do want him to be forced to make some peels that he doesnít want to make with potential RIO hands.

Another problem I have with 240 is that heís gonna call us with his 99-QQ and then basically auto-commit on any board we miss and probably fold most boards we hit. If there was more play to go I can see a bigger 4 bet size.


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Old 04-14-2019, 11:46 PM   #30
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

^
This doesn’t sound like the kind of oblivious V who is gonna call down a tight player who 4! pre followed by a 1/3rd flop bet, then turn shoves while holding 99-JJ just because the board is all underneath his pair. QQ maybe he does, but that’s not enough reason to not 4! pre.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:54 PM   #31
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

If Hero plays this hand like he has AA/KK we should win this hand a very high % of the time. You’re afraid of V calling down with a marginal hand, but the only hand that he does that with if he has a clue is QQ and MAYBE JJ, that’s it. Just because a V is 3!ing a lot doesn’t mean he’s a clueless maniac. It usually means he actually has a clue and is exploiting a table that is too tight by 3!ing wider than a standard strategy would call for. This indicates a smart V. It also indicates his 3! range is wider, which we counter-exploit by 4!ing with AK, which blocks the high end of his 3! range AND dominates all of his Ax hands (like the A-low suited he 3!) and flips with his PP’s (but we have the advantage of aggresssion and our perceived 4! range).
And we’re still in decent shape against those hands, even JJ/QQ.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:19 AM   #32
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
so you don't think it's too nitty to fold AK to a 3 bet on the button from a 3bet happy villain who has already shown A3ss as a 3bet?
Yeah, maybe itís too nitty. I donít like calling though against this player. If the dynamics were right itís probably a gii spot if he jams.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:25 AM   #33
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

This is definitely one of the rare spots where all 3 options are on the table.
I think 4!ing is the best option, and then folding might be marginally better than calling.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:55 AM   #34
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

I'm prolly not good enough to play AK OOP postflop without flopping top pair which will happen too often for my liking.
4b pre 250, small flop, big turn imo
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:46 AM   #35
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

Grunch

pls do not flat, you’ve set this up with a couple of r/f hands and V may have a weakness in that he will interpret any 4! now as playing back, likely to induce a wide shoving range and you block AA KK so can call it off

flatting forces you to cf too many flops esp since he 3! wide with Ax and blocks many of the Axx flops you want to see

As for a 4! range pre I’d have AK/JJ+ and some A9 A5s 98s type stuff on the rf side that either blocks or connects.

Last edited by oldsilver; 04-15-2019 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 04-15-2019, 05:58 AM   #36
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

Folding absolutely absurd, calling/4betting both good, probably 4betting, 220ish should be good. You don’t have to snap stack otf after 4betting pre either. Getting villain to fold any part of his linear range to the 4ball is great for you.

Spoiler:
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:06 AM   #37
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

Against a seemingly smart, young, aggressive player to whose 3bets you already folded a couple of times, I want to 4b and most likely not fold if he shoves. There's a straddle on, which you decided to 4x; we're not ridiculously deep.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:09 AM   #38
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by Eholeing View Post
Folding absolutely absurd, calling/4betting both good, probably 4betting, 220ish should be good. You donít have to snap stack otf after 4betting pre either. Getting villain to fold any part of his linear range to the 4ball is great for you.

Spoiler:
Yeah, i mean good inputs in this thread. Folding seems out of the question to me too given dynamics/described villain. I can get behind folding AK very deep in certain spots against certain villains,but i doubt this is one of them.

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Old 04-15-2019, 10:35 AM   #39
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

A smallish 4 bet would keep in dominated hands and probably make him fold a few of his live garbage hands if he's just making a move. If you make it $220-$240, he can't really fold AXs but also doesn't quite have implied odds to call with 97ss or whatever is at the bottom of his range.

Actually, he might shove Axs or Kx which means you're calling $700 to win $1100+700.

If you're thinking you would fold to a shove, then maybe just call. You'll hit 25-30% of the time and 5-10% of the time you'll flop some draws that you can check raise with. You can probably check raise some bricked boards as well 663, Q23 etc. So that makes AKo playable roughly 40% of flops out of position. It sucks when you call & miss everything though.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:59 AM   #40
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

You can't 4b/f vs. this villain at these stacks. If you 4b to $225 you need 37.5% to call off a shove.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:00 AM   #41
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

I am definitely 4betting AKo vs. this guy. Folding would be pretty bad. Calling is meh. I go $250 - $275, which is what I would do w/ AA/KK.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:40 PM   #42
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

I suck at deepstack, plus I only play with a $1 SB, but just cuz it's Gil and for lol's...

Obviously get out of this seat.

If I'm reading between the lines right, the Villain is the best player in the game, right? And he's got the Button? And we're deep? I sound like a broken record in all my deepstack posts, but unless we're prepared to get in all 300bb stacks preflop with A high (which it's possible we might be given the 3betting dynamic and our weakly folding our two previous hands), then I don't exactly see this as the best spot to build a big pot. I limp in and see what happens.

As played, if we just call the SPR will be 5. Obviously that's awesome if we flop an A/K, but otherwise I don't see how we'll be able to continue postflop. We could just fold (there's got to be easier money at the table and if so no reason to get into a deep stack war with the best player OOP). ETA: Folding has to become more of a consideration if there are some really bad deepstacks at the table and there is a handcuffing BI amount; if this is the case, then folding should be given some serious consideration, imo. Otherwise just raise to $300+ to setup a PSB stack shove on any flop (the only advantage to being OOP here is that we get to bluff first, possibly slowplaying flops we crush).

GbutIsuckatdeepstack,sowhateverG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 04-15-2019 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:55 PM   #43
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

GG, if you admit to sucking at something, why do you give advice on how to do it? Seriously. You seem like a great guy, but your logic evades me. "I suck at driving, and really have only ridden a tricycle, but here's what to do if you hydroplane going over 60 mph."
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:26 PM   #44
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
GG, if you admit to sucking at something, why do you give advice on how to do it? Seriously. You seem like a great guy, but your logic evades me. "I suck at driving, and really have only ridden a tricycle, but here's what to do if you hydroplane going over 60 mph."
Part of it is slightly tongue-in-cheek.

I likely don't completely suck at deepstack. However, (a) most posters here will say I do (that's fine), (b) I feel very uncomfortable at deepstack especially when compared to my wheelhouse of shortstack and (c) every OP who posts a deepstack question in this forum (and most of the people who respond to it) likely don't kick ass at deepstack nearly as much as they'd like to admit (there are probably exceptions, that's fine).

Overall, betting 101 that applies to all forms of gambling is really simple: attempt to make small wagers on so-so spots and attempt to make large wagers on surer things. In this spot, and a lot of the deepstack spots we've seen lately in this forum, we're OOP, deep, to the best player at the table. I'll let you decide in what category that should fall regarding betting 101.

But, I also tend to avoid deepstack poker because of my uncomfortableness with it; I play my own style within it, which I'm positive is EV, but I doubt it's nearly as EV as all the 10 bb/hr crushers we no doubt have in the form. So obviously feel free to ignore everything I say.

GimoG
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:48 PM   #45
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by Eholeing View Post
Folding absolutely absurd, calling/4betting both good, probably 4betting, 220ish should be good. You donít have to snap stack otf after 4betting pre either. Getting villain to fold any part of his linear range to the 4ball is great for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
so you don't think it's too nitty to fold AK to a 3 bet on the button from a 3bet happy villain who has already shown A3ss as a 3bet?
You guys are right 100%, OP please scratch my folding commentary. Not here. Perhaps that's reserved for ldo situations where you have the option to cold 4b/fold or the 3bettor is a nit.

Polished up advice for OP that seems obvious to me know when rereading: Against a live player who likely has a lot of 3b/folds in his repertoire you are going to want to open-4b AK 100% and call 0%. Calling is so much less appealing when a player has more 3bets because when you flat you are locking in one of the most difficult situations in poker, HU oop w a frequently capped range against a wide uncapped one with a lot of play remaining.
Vs entire 3b range gets to see a flop and his strategy IP becomes very easy We are not going to counter that particularly well by bluff catching AKhigh over a couple of streets and the only time it might work is on Axx Kxx boards where he is going to rep our hand, but still, it's not like we auto-win the pot on those boards either.

Whatever happens after the 4b should get a lot more straightforward, so it's not so bad when we get called.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:19 PM   #46
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

Uncomfortable, but that's being out of position. You have a boss hand and this villain has shown he's not shy about a 3b-and-see strategy. Not folding.

Either have a 4b range or don't. If you do, this is one of the hands in it. And if so, I'd also have a couple other big aces (AQs maybe AJs) so you can credibly barrel at Q and J high flops.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:29 PM   #47
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

No offense GG, but it's very likely you suck at deep stack.

When was the last time you played 300bb+ effective?
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:46 PM   #48
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
No offense GG, but it's very likely you suck at deep stack.

When was the last time you played 300bb+ effective?
Yeah, I definitely don't get into a lotta spots, especially with my ~newish strategy of BIing in for 66bbs. And then if I do build it up I typically attempt to effectively rathole by moving to a shorter stacked table (unless none of the deeper stacks at my current table are anyone to worry about). So yeah, fully admit not a lot of experience.

But in the end, the only thing that matters is making money. I would highly doubt I'm down money playing deepstack (which is what sucking basically means). And do any of us have detailed enough records to really know exactly how well we do deepstacked versus shorterstacked?

Still, some of the advice I see here (not just this thread but in others as well), like building pots regardless of position and regardless of skillz of opponent, etc. seem pretty lol to me. I would think lots of good deepstack players must be chomping at the bit to get into games like this if that is the advice being thrown around.

GcluelessdeepstackednoobG
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:39 PM   #49
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AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
GG, if you admit to sucking at something, why do you give advice on how to do it? Seriously. You seem like a great guy, but your logic evades me. "I suck at driving, and really have only ridden a tricycle, but here's what to do if you hydroplane going over 60 mph."


Heís not posting here to give advice. Heís posting to work through what he would do.
You donít have to agree with him but giving him patronising **** for posting his well argued position is petty oneupmanship
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:53 PM   #50
Javanewt
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Re: AK,300BB deep OOP against young aggro 3 bettor

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Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
Heís not posting here to give advice. Heís posting to work through what he would do.
You donít have to agree with him but giving him patronising **** for posting his well argued position is petty oneupmanship
GG and I get on fine. You do realize this is a strat forum, right, and people post to get advice on the optimum way to play a hand (we hope) preferably from people with experience? Nobody posts a hand to get advice on how someone with no experience would work their way through the hand. (Not that GG has no experience, but he is definitely not a deep-stack player, and I'm not the only one who has questioned his advice in this and many other deep hands.)
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