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Old 07-20-2016, 01:04 AM   #1
niceguy22
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AK 3 bet from button

1/2, 9 handed

Villain is a MAWG seems like he knows the game pretty well. He's been limp-folding a bit and has been opening more from late position. I 3bet him a couple rounds earlier with AK, also when I was on the button, and I took it down with a continuation bet. I haven't shown any bluffs, but he did angrily fold a rivered flush face up to my nut flush when I raised his bet pretty big. I didn't show.

$350 effective

folds to villain in CO who raises to 10
Hero on the button raises to 30 with AK
folds to villain who calls

Flop ($63)
983

Villain checks, hero bets $50. Meant to bet $45 but whatever. Villain calls

Turn ($163)
9837

Villain checks, hero bets 100, villain calls
I bet the flop with the plan to bet the turn. I felt like he may check call with some pocket pairs (mainly TT and JJ) on the flop and fold them on the turn. Also, I'm charging flush draws (which I beat), and I'm likely to win at showdown vs them if they wiff. I also had a bit of a leverage situation on him by having $170 behind that he probably thinks I'd shove on the river.

River ($363)
9837T

Villain leads $70, hero folds

I only beat flush draws that dont have the J so I think I have to fold the river, despite great odds. Afterwards, another guy looked to me and said "tough one" or something. Villain answered "no that was great. You'd never guess in a million years what I had." Then mucked

I thought his line looked sorta like a flopped set or JJ, thoughts?
Also thoughts on the whole hand? Thanks
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:32 AM   #2
ES2
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

I'd check the turn. If anything, it makes JJ and TT more likely to call, and I think they'd be likely to call on a blank anyway.

You bet 5/6ths pot on the flop, so I assume he likes his hand.

Even flush draws, you're not really that far ahead of. Many will have straight outs, along with the pair outs.

I'd also fold the river.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:55 AM   #3
bluffcity
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

We need a good reason to bet on any street. Our plan on the flop was to bet so we can follow it up with a double barrel on a good scare card and blow him off a pocket pair type hand. This turn card isn't a great card for our perceived range, and it's a great card for his. This is a turn that I would check back. As played, I'm always folding this river.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:06 AM   #4
Richard Parker
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Without history, turn bet could be a bit of spew.

A lot of LLSNL players do not fold to barrel if they consider the turn to be non-threat.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:16 AM   #5
CRAIerrday
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Check flop check turn fold river
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:28 AM   #6
WereBeer
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

I don't like betting flop or continuing on turn. I think this hits his range pretty hard except for big aces which presumably folded OTT except clubs.

If he had a flopped set, he played it badly IMO.
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Old 07-20-2016, 09:17 AM   #7
scrybe
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

I don't mind the plan OTF (assume you are betting clubs on turn as well?). Turn card kinda sucks though. I'd probably abandon ship there.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:49 PM   #8
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Pretty classic great situation preflop, bad situation postflop.

AKo in COvBU with CO opening for 5bbs in front of you is an awesome situation (btw, I'd raise more pre; 35-40 is good). Once the flop comes 983tt, the goal should be to put the minimum amount of money in with your range as a whole.

Betting the flop seems arguable because the backdoor to the K-high 4-flush seems to contribute more to our betting EV than to our checking EV and it's a hand I don't mind folding to a x/r. But against a middle-aged rec player with a questionable image (people hate to believe that 20-somethings have QQ+ twice in a row) in a spot where I felt I needed to barrel, then I probably wouldn't bother.

Certainly not barreling the offsuit 7 since it's a bad card for getting TT/JJ to fold (as well as T9, etc).

OTR we're not good often enough with A-high to call, and he has Jx too often to raise, so that leaves folding as the best option.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:58 PM   #9
iraisetoomuch
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

I'd raise a little bit less pre flop if I thought I could get him to call wider.
If we think that he will get sticky with his entire opening range when we 3bet then I could get behind opening larger. Just depends on what we've seen from him in the past.

Without any history of his raise/folding or raise/calling tendencies, 30 is fine.

Flop cBet is questionable. Board texture is pretty bad and I expect him to fold about none of his range. But if we plan to follow it up with a good sized barrel on favorable turn cards we can likely show a profit.

But this is not a good turn card. In fact it's a pretty terrible turn card. Lots of 1p + bd cards picked up a straight draw. Lots of flush draws now pick up a straight draw. A few two pairs get there. And it's just generally not scary to any pocket pair that was ahead.
I would check this turn about 100% of the time.

We do have the option to bluff catch on favorable river cards still if we check the turn though.

As played, pretty easy fold otr imo.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:25 PM   #10
Flpmethntsdlr
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Given his comment after the hand, I think he had some weird 6, 56c or KK, the latter being the most likely since he angrily folded the nuts to you earlier.

I'd have checked flop, turn and folded river.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:13 PM   #11
Case2
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

I'm fine with pre and flop. Yes, he's calling with much of his range. OTOH, for the range I gave him to raise/call (roughly ATo+, A8s+, 87s+, T8s+, any pair) and assuming he'll continue with any OESD, flush draw, TP+ he's folding 60% of the time.

Turn is a bad card to barrel. It doesn't hit our perceived range and improves some of his hands (OESDs and flush draws with the 5, 6, 7, T, or J). Even if he folds all his flush draws and OESDs, continuing only with TP+, that's ~75% of his turn range.

As played, river is a snap fold for me. You've shown strength throughout the hand and now V is leading into you for 1/6 pot. You beat nothing but a pure A-high or worse bluff (which happens to be exactly one combo, AcQc, for the range I used). A bluff shove would be small, but would still need to fold out 30% of his range, which I think is optimistic at best (though it might work against the right V).
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:32 PM   #12
thetruewheel
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Betting the flop is fine, but I would plan only to bet club or broadway cards on the turn.

I doubt he's folding TT-JJ on the turn. Check it back.

Pretty funny if he bluffed you off the best hand on the river. If you double barrel too often (judging by this hand, you do), if I were V, I'd start taking this line with ATC.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:40 PM   #13
niceguy22
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Diamond Re: AK 3 bet from button

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruewheel View Post
Betting the flop is fine, but I would plan only to bet club or broadway cards on the turn.

I doubt he's folding TT-JJ on the turn. Check it back.

Pretty funny if he bluffed you off the best hand on the river. If you double barrel too often (judging by this hand, you do), if I were V, I'd start taking this line with ATC.
Ya i generally dont double barrel without at least a nice draw at this level and i thought that maybe that was a leak of mine but sounds like I picked a bad spot to try it out.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:54 PM   #14
Case2
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

If you're going to double barrel without much equity to back it up, look for cards that would help your perceived range or scare your opponent's range (or, ideally, both). Overcards to the board are often good. Cards that brick the obvious draws can be good. The board doubling can be good or bad depending. If the top card doubles, it tends not to scare underpairs (since it doesn't change their relative standing and make it less likely you have one). Middle or bottom card doubling can be scary if action is such that you could have it.

Also and importantly, it's much better to have a read that V can fold a decent hand. That guy that called three streets with middle pair ain't the guy you're looking for. They don't have to be completely weak, but you want someone who can fold hands less than TPGK to pressure.

If the turn or river don't really change much, there's limited value (IME) barrreling to represent the overpair.

In some cases, you may need to commit to barreling both turn and river or give up without barreling the turn. If the turn is draw-heavy, you may get a lot of callers with good draws, especially combos. That makes barreling only the turn bad, as you'll mostly get called. However, if you're willing to barrel both turn and river, you can get the advantage that they put more money in on the turn and then surrender the river when the draws brick.

Just for illustration, let's say V will fold a half-pot bet on the turn only 20%, but will then fold 60% of his hands to a half-pot bet on the river.

20% you win the pot on the turn
80% * 60% you win 1.5 times the pot on the river
80% * 40% you lose 1.5 times the pot overall

That's profitable. Just barreling the turn loses about 0.3 times the pot.

Last edited by Case2; 07-20-2016 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 07-20-2016, 03:13 PM   #15
kansaisupra
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Feel like Villain has TT or JJ.

I think he more likely has TT. Raise pre, flat calls 3!, small cards on flop, picks up open ended on Turn, donks bets small on River, maybe a blocker bet in hopes you don't have JJ.

I'd folded and I'd probably bet less on the turn.
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Old 08-19-2016, 06:38 AM   #16
MamaRolex
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

If effective are $350 you should 4bet to $120 to force opponent to a shove or fold. You don't want him to reevaluate on the flop. Even if he's got AK he may call but since you both missed and you put him to e big decision on the flop by betting like $200 he will definitely fold and you won with your AK vs. his AK.

The most important concept in NL is how to beat any other AK with your AK when opponent play it as a drawing hand. You want to miss the flop and blow him off the pot on the flop. This is the biggest cahoona of the NL. The secret is what amount to bet on pre and on the flop to produce the right result. But I'm not going into that.
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Old 08-19-2016, 07:22 AM   #17
andees10
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Check the flop. This board is pretty bad for you. It's ok to 3 bet pre and not auto bet.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:13 AM   #18
PFunkaliscious
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

don't really get this hand. you don't have a pair and you need to find a way to get your opponent to fold.

the only way is so bet bigger.

so, pre should have been about 50. on the flop it should have been about 90. also, if you bet 90 on the turn, it is very much implied that you are going to shove on the turn, and make him commit his whole stack with JJ, or TT, or whatever he had. so your FE is very stronger versus those smaller bets which tend to just bloat the pot and get calls from players who are sticky.
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Old 08-19-2016, 06:18 PM   #19
BackDoorFlush
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Re: AK 3 bet from button

Quote:
Originally Posted by andees10 View Post
Check the flop. This board is pretty bad for you. It's ok to 3 bet pre and not auto bet.
This.

We don't have to win every single pot.
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