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AJs OOP vs BTN AJs OOP vs BTN

10-17-2013 , 09:12 AM
Hi guys I would like some feedback on a hand that I recently played at a 200NL live game.

Effective stacks "mine": $142

After 6 players limp I am in the BB holding A J so I opted to check.

The flop comes: A 7 T $16 in pot

I bet $12. It goes fold until the BTN who calls.

The turn brings a J $40 in pot.

I bet $22. The BTN raises to 44$. I shove for $106
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 09:48 AM
What do you know about button's play? Your line looks OK up until the shove, that being good depends heavily on villain's range for the minraise. Given stack sizes though, I'm mostly going all the way with top two. I would be more concerned if shoving on turn or calling and betting river was a better line for getting called by worse hands.

Raising preflop may or may not be better then checking. That is very situational though, depending on stack sizes and how the table is playing.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGrind

Effective stacks "mine": $142
After 6 players limp I am in the BB holding A J so I opted to check.
The flop comes: A 7 T $16 in pot
I bet $12. It goes fold until the BTN who calls.
The turn brings a J $40 in pot.
I bet $22. The BTN raises to 44$. I shove for $106
Get used to play in raised pots only. If you figure a hand worth playing why not play it for more money? The cards are the same and the flop will be also the same. You will hit or miss the board exactly the same way. Even if you got a hand like AJs that plays well in volume pots, you should still raise in such a way as to get some callers no matter what. As soon as you raise and manage to fold some other dudes your chances of winning the hand improves no matter what. It depends how many limpers fold after wasting the lip $$ you gain some edge in the form of "outs"

In the hand above if you would have raised pf and got one caller you could have won the pot on the flop by cb. In this specific situation you would have guaranty that you'll be getting called on your turn shove. With a bigger pot and a much more investment the other dude gets committed and feel obligated to call the shove. I don't know the other dude in this case but some of them could still get away after the turn. If you would have raised pf then the shove would had to be smaller $$ and have the other dude call for sure even with one-pair hand.

If say you only play pots for a limp of 1xbb and say you win at the end of the night $100 then, if with the same hands played them for a raise of 4xbb you should still be a winer but for more money for sure. I would say at least $300. And, raised pots are much easy to play instead the limp ones. In limped pots you never know where you stand. Like playing blind...,

Last edited by Octavian; 10-17-2013 at 10:09 AM.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 10:10 AM
I think you played the hand pretty well.

Turn play is heavily dep't on villain image and any history you may recall. 98/KQ have you beat, however there are several combos of AT/JT that you beat. Calling turn and evaluating river may be better. With deeper stacks I'd likely call and C/F river.

Pre is good given your stack size (top off by the way). Flop is standard B/F, imo.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 10:10 AM
While I don't think the check is terrible, I prefer raising here pre to like 16-18 ish.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PardoG
While I don't think the check is terrible, I prefer raising here pre to like 16-18 ish.
I don't like the check here personally but I can understand why OP did it.

I prefer a raise here in the BB. There's already 6 limps and you need to narrow the field down PF especially with AJ suited. Everything else is fine.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 10:58 AM
Without know a single thing about this game, I don't see how we can evaluate anything. Whether or not to raise preflop depends on how many callers you expect. In the game I was playing yesterday, full of loose passive calling stations, if I made it $18 from the big blind, it would have gone 4-7 to the flop for sure. Just check in this case. If you think you can narrow the field to 2 or less opponents, then you should raise.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacreeper
........ Whether or not to raise preflop depends on how many callers you expect. In the game I was playing yesterday, full of loose passive calling stations, if I made it $18 from the big blind, it would have gone 4-7 to the flop for sure. Just check in this case.
No way, pardner..,
No matter what the composition of the table is, playing for a raise is still the best strategy. There is no advantage in playing limp pots. Just give me ONE example where playing for a limp has +EV vs. the same situation where I advocate playing for a pf raise. Just one situation, please..., if you can find one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vacreeper
If you think you can narrow the field to 2 or less opponents, then you should raise.
You should raise at all times if decide to play. Else, don't play the hand in question. Narrowing the field or not is one small thing. The important thing is if playing any hand then why not for a raise? ---, else fold. If a hand is good for a limp then it is definitely good for a raise too. There is no advantage in limping vs. a raise. The game and the hands develop exactly the same way. But by raising you give yourself a better chance to win the hand procentage-wise and dollar-wise too. Make more money by raising with a bigger stack flux. And since we have lots of bankroll we care less about the flux. If your stack doesn't move up and down constantly you are not playing optimally to your full potential.

You should raise even if you are 100% sure the field would NOT be narrowed by your raise. If the hand is good for play then RAISE it, pardner... ! ..lol..lol

Last edited by Octavian; 10-17-2013 at 11:18 AM.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:13 AM
if that button limped with KQ he might have probably called you if you raised pf anyway, as well as if he had 77 & 1010.

However AJ suited can sometimes be played in a multi way pot but when you are last to act and there is a bunch of dead limped money, I would have raised it for value.
Results might have been the same in this particular hand but that doesn't really matter in the long run.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:19 AM
I think the turn ship is fine; with the effective stacks being what they are, I don't think you're going to be able to get away from this, and there's an off chance he's doing this with clubs, and there are a bunch of river cards (clubs, Ks, Qs, 9s) that will scare AT/JT from paying off.

In general, I think AJs is too strong to check here, but I could see it if it is the kind of call happy table where everyone is going to call pre-flop, but will also call with a wide range after the flop if you hit. There's no reason to put money in pre-flop if you can still get paid later. However, if you can get it down to 2-3 people a lot of the time, I would make it 15-20 out of the BB. AJo I would check.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:30 AM
The only real draw gets there ott... Raise to 16 pre... AP check call turn and river
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
What do you know about button's play? Your line looks OK up until the shove, that being good depends heavily on villain's range for the minraise. Given stack sizes though, I'm mostly going all the way with top two. I would be more concerned if shoving on turn or calling and betting river was a better line for getting called by worse hands.

Raising preflop may or may not be better then checking. That is very situational though, depending on stack sizes and how the table is playing.
The table was loose so I decided to limp. Villain on BTN just sat down a couple of hands prior to this one and did not seem too loose.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavian
Get used to play in raised pots only. If you figure a hand worth playing why not play it for more money? The cards are the same and the flop will be also the same. You will hit or miss the board exactly the same way. Even if you got a hand like AJs that plays well in volume pots, you should still raise in such a way as to get some callers no matter what. As soon as you raise and manage to fold some other dudes your chances of winning the hand improves no matter what. It depends how many limpers fold after wasting the lip $$ you gain some edge in the form of "outs"

In the hand above if you would have raised pf and got one caller you could have won the pot on the flop by cb. In this specific situation you would have guaranty that you'll be getting called on your turn shove. With a bigger pot and a much more investment the other dude gets committed and feel obligated to call the shove. I don't know the other dude in this case but some of them could still get away after the turn. If you would have raised pf then the shove would had to be smaller $$ and have the other dude call for sure even with one-pair hand.

If say you only play pots for a limp of 1xbb and say you win at the end of the night $100 then, if with the same hands played them for a raise of 4xbb you should still be a winer but for more money for sure. I would say at least $300. And, raised pots are much easy to play instead the limp ones. In limped pots you never know where you stand. Like playing blind...,
Players at my table call raises from any position and with any two cards so when I am UTG with a hand like AJ I would limp and then adjust my play post flop. I don't want to raise AJ when OOP as it is more difficult to play this hand profitably OOP.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGrind
Players at my table call raises from any position and with any two cards so when I am UTG with a hand like AJ I would limp and then adjust my play post flop. I don't want to raise AJ when OOP as it is more difficult to play this hand profitably OOP.
It's more difficult to play the hand vs 7 opponents than one. Raise pre.

As played, I'm never folding with these stacks. Sure he can have 77 or 89 (I'm assuming it was 89) but there are a lot of two pair combos in his range too. If stacks are deeper I call turn and evaluate river. As played I'm fine with shoving. Can't call and fold river and villain can't fold to a shove so all the money is going in.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samo
I think you played the hand pretty well.

Turn play is heavily dep't on villain image and any history you may recall. 98/KQ have you beat, however there are several combos of AT/JT that you beat. Calling turn and evaluating river may be better. With deeper stacks I'd likely call and C/F river.

Pre is good given your stack size (top off by the way). Flop is standard B/F, imo.
He did limp the BTN so it's safe to assume that his range is wide. The bulk of his range on the turn is 89 hands, JT hands, and AT's. Now knowing that he could have peeled the straight on the turn would you still push with top two. If I just call the turn I am left with $84 so I know I am getting about 1.5 to 1 which are reasonable odds.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairPressure
I don't like the check here personally but I can understand why OP did it.

I prefer a raise here in the BB. There's already 6 limps and you need to narrow the field down PF especially with AJ suited. Everything else is fine.
I opted to limp because I was seated at a loose table where players call raises very often so narrowing the field was not likely going to happen in the event I raised pre-flop.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGrind
He did limp the BTN so it's safe to assume that his range is wide. The bulk of his range on the turn is 89 hands, JT hands, and AT's. Now knowing that he could have peeled the straight on the turn would you still push with top two. If I just call the turn I am left with $84 so I know I am getting about 1.5 to 1 which are reasonable odds.
Villain-dependent, thus vs. an unknown I'd probably just call, check river and eval action.

Their sizing is strange for a straight, but I may be leveling myself. I think a straight raises more than min since there are cards in the playing zone on board, which will likely call.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samo
Villain-dependent, thus vs. an unknown I'd probably just call, check river and eval action.

Their sizing is strange for a straight, but I may be leveling myself. I think a straight raises more than min since there are cards in the playing zone on board, which will likely call.
He showed 89 for a straight...
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samo
I think you played the hand pretty well.

Turn play is heavily dep't on villain image and any history you may recall. 98/KQ have you beat, however there are several combos of AT/JT that you beat. Calling turn and evaluating river may be better. With deeper stacks I'd likely call and C/F river.

Pre is good given your stack size (top off by the way). Flop is standard B/F, imo.
I opted to limp since a raise would likely not thin the field. I find myself in these situations a lot of times where I am sitting at a loose 1/2 NL live game (actually 90% of the tables are like that) and people call raises with any 2 cards.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 01:07 PM
Also that min raise on the turn by the villain? That stinks of "big hand, please call" betting.

If you're going to play against these loose/passive players then don't be afraid to pound them when you get a top hand PF, especially when you're in position.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 01:35 PM
I know it seems nitty to fold here on turn, but its what i would do. His minraise means a straight (to me). I fold. And i also wouldnt play so short so that I wouldnt be in such spots so often.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairPressure
Also that min raise on the turn by the villain? That stinks of "big hand, please call" betting.

If you're going to play against these loose/passive players then don't be afraid to pound them when you get a top hand PF, especially when you're in position.
I would def raise AJs in position but it just happened that I was OOP in this particular hand so I had to make due and limp behind.
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-17-2013 , 11:25 PM
I bet more OTT.
In the low 30's, upper 20's
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote
10-18-2013 , 03:28 AM
I agree with AintNoLimit.

From my experience, so many of these guys at 1/2 are so passive and check/cally it's ridiculous and with that board there's no way that guy would raise you without a straight, even a small raise like that.

Truth is, most of 'em don't know bet sizing at all. So the "weak raise" means he's probably got the nuts and in his mind, "that's a big bet".

If he had two pair with this board, he would just call. Though sometimes I've seen them overvalue two pair but in this instance you're looking at a straight from an unknown. The passive calling stations always play their hands faceup.

I don't know how many times when I first started playing seriously, I would call them down and there it is, "the nuts". And then after the hand in my shell of bewilderment I was thinking, "why wasn't this guy sizing his bets larger with the nuts.

Because they're check/cally Monkeymeat!
AJs OOP vs BTN Quote

      
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