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AJs after a c/r on the Flop AJs after a c/r on the Flop

10-30-2017 , 11:56 AM
I’m brand new to 2p2 (atleast posting, been reading for a month or so) so please let me know if anything is wrong with my post or I forgot to include something.

This is $1/$2 nl

Hero - $470 stack. Hero has somewhere between a tight and loose but Aggressive image. I am definitely the most aggressive player at the table, and while I do play tight, I mix in plenty of suited connectors, 1 gappers, or unsuited Connectors (especially in position if it’s cheap) and players at this limit sometimes see that as me being a maniac.

Villian - $200 Stack. Villian is an older guy in his 50s but seems pretty solid. I’ve only been playing with him about an hour but I haven’t seen any glaring mistakes, I haven’t seen him showdown any bluffs but that doesn’t necessarily mean he hasn’t. He is tight aggressive (but not super aggressive, leaning more towards passive, and not super tight like a lot of older nits).

Player UTG+2 Limps
Villian in MP2 Limps
Hero OTB looks down at AJ and raises to $12.
Small Blind Calls
UTG+2 Folds
Villian Calls

Flop ($36) AK8
Small Blind Checks
Villian Checks
Hero bets $16
SB Folds
Villian raises to $32

At this point I don’t think Villian could have AK because of his limp call pre flop, but something like A8s or 88 is possible. I also think he could make this check raise with lower diamonds (T9, 56, etc). I don’t think he would make a raise with KQ or KJ (and KQ would be a weird limp) so I’m taking that out of his range. Regardless a min-Raise vs my nut flush draw and a pair is atleast a call getting more then 5:1, if not a raise. I choose not to raise because I don’t think he’s folding anything better (MAYBE AQ but I don’t think that’s in his range with the limp) and I’m probably just getting all worse hands to fold (especially lower flushes which will get it in with me when a diamond hits).

Hero Calls $32

Turn ($100) 8

Villian thinks for a bit, almost seems like he wants to bet, but ends up Checking
Hero Bets $40
Villian Calls

I’m honestly not sure if betting here is correct or not, and if it is correct I think my Sizing might be a little too small. In the moment I was thinking I have a nut flush drawings and a pair, I should bet as a sort of semi-Bluff with a ton of outs. And I bet on the smaller side to keep lower flush draws in so I can stack off against them (but not sure if this is correct thinking or not). After Villian Calls I think a very large part of his range is those lower flush draws. I also think there are some monsters in his range (like A8) but I feel like he would have just bet out on the turn.

River ($180) T
Villian Bets $75
Hero???

I’m not sure where I’m at here. I do think some of his range is bluffs with his missed diamonds here but the fact I have 2 diamonds makes that range smaller. His line doesn’t make a whole ton of sense. He only had $115 left in his stack and bet $75, which almost seems like he’s bluffing but too scared to risk his entire stack. That being said he showed strength on the flop with the Check Raise and strength on the river by betting out which is often not a Bluff at these stakes.

Any help is appreciated, thanks guys!

Last edited by Krux; 10-30-2017 at 12:02 PM.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 12:29 PM
You lose only to a flopped set or AK. Since he didn't re-raise you preflop I don't put him on AA or AK, or even less 88 now that the 8 got paired on the turn.

I think he's got an Ace and he will chop the pot even if you have AJ or AQ because the King plays. You both have two pair: Aces and Eights with King kicker. I would call. I don't claim perfection but I think I'm very close to reality.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 12:29 PM
I don't like your line at all.

Preflop: What's the standard open size on this game? If it's $10 or $12 then I would raise just a bit more with two limpers. I'm going at least $15-16, maybe even $18 in my local games.

Postflop: Once you decide to flat the V's min-raise, why are you betting the turn? Realize your equity and see if you can get a free card to improve. If you think you're ahead, get your value on the river. It's very hard to get 3 streets of value when someone raises you on the flop and you flat and then you bet the next two streets. Either they raised you on the flop on a draw with air, or you're too often behind and getting just 1 street of value should be sufficient. If they were on a draw, you're not getting 3 streets of value if they don't hit it anyway, unless you were both on a diamond draw, and even then you may be folding them out with your turn bet.

I would check the turn here and then B/C or B/F the river for about $75 depending on what card lands and what my read of V is. In this case, V's line and then river bet screams AT so it would likely be a B/F. If I think V is capable of aggressive semi-bluffs, then I call and hope for a chop.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krux
........

... Villian is an older guy in his 50s but seems pretty solid. I’ve only been playing with him about an hour but I haven’t seen any glaring mistakes, I haven’t seen him showdown any bluffs but that doesn’t necessarily mean he hasn’t. He is tight aggressive (but not super aggressive, leaning more towards passive, and not super tight like a lot of older nits).
You see, the way you describe your opponent has nothing to do with all the preflop, flop, turn and river action. Nothing from your description can help you playing this hand against him or any similar villains in situation like the one you find yourself in right now.

1.) "an older guy in his 50s but seems pretty solid" - has no value to your way of playing against him.
2.) "I haven’t seen any glaring mistakes," - useless
3.) "I haven’t seen him showdown any bluffs" - so don't know if he bluffs or not
4.) "He is tight aggressive (but not super aggressive, leaning more towards passive, and not super tight like a lot of older nits)" - so he's all over the place but you don't know where he stands.

All of the above descriptions/observations are all useless. It clogs your focus and you don't know how to attack him. That's the reality. If you calm down and start thinking straight you'll understand what I mean. How you attack and make a plan against a guy in his 50s, mistakes free, no bluffs and you think he's little on the tight side but passive? How you attack this guy? - Or, do you attack him or leave him alone?

Now, be honest. How you plan to use this information to make a attack plan?. Well, I'm telling what,..., You can't! - You don't have any plan based on that information because you can't possibly build an attack plan. That's the truth.

You're focusing at the wrong parameters. You are not focusing where the money are hidden. You are not focusing to where the money become available to you to grab them and that's the art of playing. That's why they say NL cash is an art form of a game. It's a mind game played against people using cards.

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-30-2017 at 02:48 PM.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 02:46 PM
Check back turn
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman
Check back turn
When they check to you OTT, ..., Bet! Your turn bet is almost never a bad bet. Most of the time it’s very profitable. If you can’t figure out when to bet, you’re much better off betting your one pair hands on the turn than betting none of them.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 02:56 PM
Seems like a good spot to shove river. The times he shows up with a better hand are probably outweighed by the times he folds an ace because he can only chop.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisKhan
When they check to you OTT, ..., Bet! Your turn bet is almost never a bad bet. Most of the time it’s very profitable. If you can’t figure out when to bet, you’re much better off betting your one pair hands on the turn than betting none of them.
You're bloating a pot which you aren't sure you're ahead in and charging yourself money to draw. You put yourself in a compromising position in said pot when you miss the draw on the river, and for what gain? It's difficult to get 3 streets of value with TPTK. You have to keep your aspirations in check.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:12 PM
Welcome to the forums!

Pre – with $7 of dead money in, raise larger, say $16ish.

Flop – I’d B/C maybe 60-65% of pot. Your sizing is leaving $ on the table. His min-raise may be a response to that, difficult to say.
Side note: I don’t think a competent player is calling a 6 bbs pre-flop raise with A8s with 50 bbs effective. 98s/87s are more likely, and due to c-bet sizing, his raise may have been a stab to fold hands like QQ/JJ/TT.

Turn – As played, I’d check back. It would be horrible for our equity to face a C/R. Betting commits, so if that was your plan, fine.

River - I’d give up, primarily since his sizing begs for a call, and admittedly lost in terms of ranging.

GL!

Last edited by samo; 10-30-2017 at 03:20 PM.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisKhan
...

You're focusing at the wrong parameters. You are not focusing where the money are hidden. You are not focusing to where the money become available to you to grab them and that's the art of playing. That's why they say NL cash is an art form of a game. It's a mind game played against people using cards.
Fair enough. What parameters should I be focusing on then?
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:12 PM
The turn is one of the best cards for us as we realistically only lose to Ah8h and 88 and that’s only 2 combos total. Also, I think there’s a decent chance V raises 88 pre. We are now chopping with AQ instead of losing to it. What are your thoughts of overbet shoving the turn for the $156 effective to get V off a chop? We raised pre so our range is uncapped whereas V’s is.

Last edited by CWsports; 10-30-2017 at 03:20 PM.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkesDave
You're bloating a pot which you aren't sure you're ahead in and charging yourself money to draw. You put yourself in a compromising position in said pot when you miss the draw on the river, and for what gain? It's difficult to get 3 streets of value with TPTK. You have to keep your aspirations in check.
You get many situations where you can close your eyes and bet the turn whenever your opponents check to you and show a profit. As I said before, when they check to you OTT, ..., Bet! Your turn bet is almost never a bad bet. Most of the time it’s very profitable. If you can’t figure out when to bet, you’re much better off betting your one pair hands on the turn than betting none of them. If you don't bet the turn you give up on the hand because most of the times skilled villains will lead on the river so you are in a worse situation with "one pair hands". This is mathematically proven by David Sklansky in his "Theory of Poker" master work.

If you worry about bloating the pot if you aren't sure yet if you have the best hand and wait for the nuts or near nuts hand to bet the turn, well,.. you will run out of time and money.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:17 PM
I think jamming turn is slightly worse than checking back
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkesDave
I don't like your line at all.

Preflop: What's the standard open size on this game? If it's $10 or $12 then I would raise just a bit more with two limpers. I'm going at least $15-16, maybe even $18 in my local games.
My standard is $8 + $2 per limper. Should I increase this? At this table I was commonly getting 1 caller with this open Raise size, if I was getting 2-3 most of the time I would increase it but I wasn’t at this table (even though I did this hand).

As for the rest of your post I agree that your line of check back turn and B/C or B/F depending on river and read is the right play.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote
10-30-2017 , 03:31 PM
I'm OK with jamming turn by the way, although I prefer check back. I just don't like thin value betting the turn when you don't know where you stand and you take the risk of getting check-raised by a hand that dominates you.

As played, I think Villain's line screams AT, and even a less likely A8/K8s.

What's the standard raise size of the game you play in? Not yours. Like in my 1/2 local games it's usually $10 or $12. If that's the standard, you push a bit higher with limpers in play. If your standard in your area is $8 then $12 with 2 limpers is probably OK.

And Ghengiskhan, while I appreciate Sklansky's work, and I've read some of it, the meta in poker has changed drastically since 1999. Poker isn't as simple anymore as betting when shown perceived weakness, because standard playing lines have been adjusted to account for that. The Theory of Poker has tremendous insights, but not all of them are effective now as they were from 2003-2010.

If you're going to bet the turn, you have to have an answer, based on the amount, of what you're trying to accomplish.

1) For value -- is it for value? If so, is it thin value against your V holding two lower diamonds than you? You realize V can't even be holding a combo draw here that you could bet against for value because the non-diamond on the flop already paired up?

2) For fold equity -- not big enough. Besides, you have TP and a draw to top flush, is this really where you want to capitalize on FE? Besides, if V is holding an ace, the K plays on the board so you can really only be repping AK or an 8 here. The only way you're getting an ace to fold on the turn is a jam

3) To deny V's equity -- you aren't doing that here unless because you're holding the biggest draw, not your opponent

So what's the point of betting $40 on the turn? To play for stacks without the nuts if your draw lands on the river? To play for stacks if you get check-raised and pray you're chopping and not worse? What value are you getting?

Last edited by HawkesDave; 10-30-2017 at 03:49 PM.
AJs after a c/r on the Flop Quote

      
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