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Old 03-19-2019, 06:08 PM   #1
godzi11a
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AJos in 3b pot OOP

2-5 NL 1k max, tight, passive table. Hero has very LAG image.

Hero $1k
Villan covers

HJ raises $15, CO (TAG) calls, BTN calls, Hero 3b $80 with AJ in SB, only CO calls.

Flop: A 8 4 rainbow

Hero bets $70, V calls.

Turn: A 8 4 Jx

Hero check, V bets $175, H raises to $425, V shoves.

Thoughts so far?
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:55 PM   #2
Aulm
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Yeah.... call. Is this really a question, you have top two pair on a board that looks dry (although you have not included suits of the cards).

For a tag to call a three bet like that... smells like AK

Try making your write-up as descriptive as possible.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:15 PM   #3
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Villain had 88 cuz it’s a post on 2p2. In general, keep betting turn and worry about folding if you get raised on turn.

As played, you can’t fold top two and you’re never drawing dead so roll with it.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:31 PM   #4
godzi11a
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by Aulm View Post
Yeah.... call. Is this really a question, you have top two pair on a board that looks dry (although you have not included suits of the cards).

For a tag to call a three bet like that... smells like AK

Try making your write-up as descriptive as possible.
Was a rainbow board as stated, didn’t think suits mattered in this particular situation.

You think Tag flats a $15 open in co with AK?

Wasn’t a question whether to call or not. I have $450 back of course I’m calling. Just wondering if you play the hand any different and what V can have.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:32 PM   #5
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Villain had 88 cuz itís a post on 2p2. In general, keep betting turn and worry about folding if you get raised on turn.

As played, you canít fold top two and youíre never drawing dead so roll with it.


What sizing do you use on turn? Do we ever fold to a raise?
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:43 PM   #6
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Fold preflop usually. I’d just bet turn to balance out my KQs/T9s turn bets. As played call.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:25 PM   #7
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by godzi11a View Post


What sizing do you use on turn? Do we ever fold to a raise?
It’s a dry board I would just get $100-125 and look for a third street of value on river.

As played, villain bet huge and you still decided to x/r. You’re probably beat and could make an exploitative fold based on that alone but villain can still be overplaying A8s/A4s (although 88/44 are way more logical preflop defends).
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:18 PM   #8
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

pre is a fold. if you wanna spew make it way bigger deep and oop

turn keep betting, ap sigh call and if you lose to a set you only have your squeeze to blame
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:48 PM   #9
godzi11a
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
pre is a fold. if you wanna spew make it way bigger deep and oop

turn keep betting, ap sigh call and if you lose to a set you only have your squeeze to blame
If we're folding AJ pre in the sb for a 3x open with 2 other callers, what are we ever calling with in this spot?

How nitty are some games out there?!

Last edited by godzi11a; 03-19-2019 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:57 PM   #10
godzi11a
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Itís a dry board I would just get $100-125 and look for a third street of value on river.

As played, villain bet huge and you still decided to x/r. Youíre probably beat and could make an exploitative fold based on that alone but villain can still be overplaying A8s/A4s (although 88/44 are way more logical preflop defends).
$175 is only half-pot sized bet. I don't think I'll ever be good enough to fold top two to that bet alone.

But yeah, after replaying the hand in my head, only 44/88 make sense with his line. B/F turn would be best.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:31 AM   #11
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

You’re right, turn bet isn’t huge - I miscalculated slightly.

It’s big in the sense that there’s no flush draw and you never have a straight draw for villain to worry about/protect against. Despite that, he’s still using a sizing to create a river pot of $680 with $675 effective stacks behind. He’s setting the stage for a river bet anywhere between $300-675.

The minimum hand I’d expect him to take this line with is AJs, and given the rainbow board and your offsuit holding, there may not even be a combo of AJs remaining in the deck. But there’s certainly still 6 combos of 88/44.

Turn x/r is FPS that allows you to level yourself into calling it off drawing nearly dead when your relative hand strength given your line, the board, and villain’s actions are quite weak. Top two CAN be a monster, but it can also be a “cooler” when you’re GII with 200 bigs and not many worse combos that will pay you off like on this texture.

If villain did in fact have a set then he ran incredibly well to flop it against you IP in a 3bet pot where you have top two. That’s just always a recipe to lose SOME money. The question is do you get stacked or sniff it out on the turn or river and get away.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:37 AM   #12
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
pre is a fold. if you wanna spew make it way bigger deep and oop

turn keep betting, ap sigh call and if you lose to a set you only have your squeeze to blame

Why is pre a spew? If it has been a tight table, squeezing occasionally with AJo seems fine to me with 200 BB.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:37 AM   #13
Minatorr
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Why is pre a spew? If it has been a tight table, squeezing occasionally with AJo seems fine to me with 200 BB.
AJo is not the hand you want to be with OOP in a 3b pot this deep. There are plenty of better hand selections. OTB it's more okay (still spew probably) but this deep from the SB you're going to have very little FE OOP, especially with OP's LAG image.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-20-2019 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:41 AM   #14
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by godzi11a View Post
If we're folding AJ pre in the sb for a 3x open with 2 other callers, what are we ever calling with in this spot?

How nitty are some games out there?!
It's a fold because it's -EV to call. 3b pre is also spewing in most scenarios and usually -EV, but is better than calling. If you want to spew make it at least $100 so you don't give nit regs the opportunity or a reason to set-mine IP. Your pre sizing is too small.

There are plenty of other hands to call here with in the SB.

I don't particularly care how nitty you think some other games are.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:47 AM   #15
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Mina - are you basing fold pre on the “tight, passive table” description? This could be a leak of mine but I don’t mind the 3bet here under good conditions. Calling definitely the worst of the three choices.

If HJ is tight and never raises and $15 isn’t a sizing tell then don’t 3bet AJo, but this looks like a pretty good scenario from my perspective.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:11 AM   #16
godzi11a
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

$15 is a super weak open from HJ opponent, and I don’t think squeezing AJ in SB is a “spew”. I wouldn’t change a thing preflop given the table dynamics at the time.

I think Villain in CO calling $80 to set mine with 88 is the bigger mistake and -EV
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:14 AM   #17
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Pre is fold or 3! I'm a fan of big 3! sizing, but $80 is huge. I think $65 accomplishes the same thing here. Although I still lean towards folding AJo as default, especially at tight tables.

Flop is standard, c-bet 40-60% pot.

Turn is button clicking/spew. Raising 2p at a tight table is overplaying. At any other table I'd say snap call, but here V has a set 99% of the time.

Sizing is awkward on turn, leaving like a 1/2 psb for river. That may or may not induce some Vs (hard to say readless)

Please put pot sizes on every street.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:15 AM   #18
godzi11a
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Your pre sizing is too small.
5.5x too small at a passive table?
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:15 AM   #19
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by godzi11a View Post
I think Villain in CO calling $80 to set mine with 88 is the bigger mistake and -EV
Folding any pair here except maybe 22 is nonsense.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:21 AM   #20
godzi11a
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Folding any pair here except maybe 22 is nonsense.
Hmm interesting. Fold to any cbet if we don’t hit our set?
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:39 AM   #21
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Im not really a fan of 3! Preflop but i think postflop your line is ok. Calling as played.
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:33 AM   #22
Minatorr
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Mina - are you basing fold pre on the “tight, passive table” description? This could be a leak of mine but I don’t mind the 3bet here under good conditions. Calling definitely the worst of the three choices.

If HJ is tight and never raises and $15 isn’t a sizing tell then don’t 3bet AJo, but this looks like a pretty good scenario from my perspective.
Yeah, under good conditions it's probably somewhat okay. But OP has a LAG image, reducing his FE dramatically. I don't expect the squeeze to get too much respect and OP is basically bloating a huge pot OOP where he's deep with a hand that has RIO and not too much fold equity pre, and it's hard for him to pot control when he makes one pair hands. He will also be OOP to any player who calls, and if more than one player calls (which he is inviting to happen by making it $80 pre), he is going to be in a world of pain when he flops anything. If you're going to play OOP in a 400-600bb pot, you probably want to go somewhat more polarized and have suited hands/PP that can stack/cooler people this deep, not trash like AJo that almost always just flops weak pairs in a 3b pot. E.g. Maybe 88+, KJs+, A10s+, QJs, A4s/A5s, etc.

You also kind of have to be wary of 3-betting too many offsuit hands, as there are a ton of more offsuit hands and you can start bluffing too much pretty quick. I don't know if it's super relevant, but for some of my 3b/4b hands I randomize between flatting or 3b/4b if I have a club in my hand. It's to avoid 3-betting too much (as in some positions I'm already 3-betting a ton), and it also doesn't cap my range on K high boards if I mix between flat pre and 3b pre with KQ, as opposed to always 3-betting or always flatting.

Also the fact that OP's been LAG and the table is "passive," it's pretty conceivable that one of the callers is trying to trap OP as well.

I can get behind a 3-bet if the table is just weak tight and you have a card-dead/tight image, but here specifically I think it's just super spewy.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-20-2019 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:41 AM   #23
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

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Originally Posted by godzi11a View Post
5.5x too small at a passive table?
The standard for OOP 3b is 4x the original raise + 1x for each caller, so it should be at least $90. And then add some extra bb for being OOP to not let IP get great odds to stack you, set-mine, or "lol outplay" you postflop this deep, so at least $100. I don't know how often you get into 3b pot but overwhemingly in my experience, when effective stacks are deep, IP players rarely fold to regular-sized 3-bets and even get very sticky vs large 3-bets cuz "lol deep" and "lol position".
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:57 AM   #24
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Re: AJos in 3b pot OOP

Turn check raise is stupid. Just keep betting.

Pre is good, as long as you are being selective.
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