I play in a loose-passive live $1/$2 game with $200 effective stacks...and I've begun to think that there's no reason to open with AJ/KQ/KJ in EP. Just seems like in this type of game, raising and limping with these hands is always going to be -EV. Suited or not, seems like the value of blind stealing & flop c-bet success when you miss is way behind the losses from hitting TP with the worse kicker, being OOP, and making it all the way to show down with decent equity.

Thoughts?

loose passive game right?

Your assumption is incorrect.

um, why?

yeah, unless you run like a freight train. same type of game this week I saw a guy limp with all sorts of crazy sh** and call raises from anywhere and just get pounded by the deck. Q2ss and flopping flushes, J4o and flopping sets, etc. if you have your god mode enabled then its extremely profitable, if you are among us mere mortals then its not recommended.

you are exactly right on your assessment of why as well. picking up blinds in 1/2 means nothing compared to the action you'll get when you dominate another players hand post flop.

Your question is really vague. You basically just say you think some hands are -ev and list 2 possible good thins about the hands and 1 bad thing. In reality things are much more complex and ANL thinks all the complicated things make the hand +EV

well, think about it a bit.

A. We are ahead of other limpers ranges.
B. We should be able to read them better than they read us and betsize in a strong manner which allows us to figure out exactly what they have almost.
C. We have better than avg starting hands and they are passive so we dont
have to worry about being bluffed off anything.

And on and on.



Note: I guess i should add it all depends on how well hero can reads hands and betsize / control table etc. as to whether it s profitable.
bottom line is we are limping with KJo and others are limping K5ss etc. (only limped pots i speak of). So this is the recipe for +EV spots for hero. Now its up to hero as to how well he extracts (or spews) in these spots. But in answering your question, its a +EV spot to limp IF you can play up to par postflop.

So we don't want to play KQ v people playing Qxs? I know it is not that simple but neither is it just a case of I might be dominate so fold.

if you are not one to get married to your hands and you're somewhat deep stacked I think there are more ways to play these holdings. I for one have started to x them out of my typical strategy at an unknown table because while I may win some small pots with them, too many times I'll get skinned for 20-40 bb and wonder what I could have done better. there is of course, no one way to play but my advice would be to leave these types of holdings out of your EP at least until you've accumulated a deeper stack where you're not left with the type of decisions where you need to commit with TPGK or fold. those are the spots where I feel I, for one, have saved myself some money. I understand your point of loose-passive games but even then I see tons of players limp in with AK, AQ among other hands that could warrant a raise, but at 1/2, in my experience... NEVER LAY HANDS DOWN. so getting to the river and paying off x amount to see you v-towned yourself is a gross feeling. its been said before, but if you're just looking to play more hands, I would start adding in SC and S1G to your range instead of KJ and AT. just my opinion so take it however you like.

I'd also like to add that in no way do I think a deeper stack changes your EV, but if you aren't one to get attached and can lay hands down, you'll find yourself in more spots where a deeper stack can ease the sting of a 25 or 30 bb loss.

thanks for the thoughts so far...quesuerte and ANL, i get what you're both saying about making it +EV if you can read your opponent (although you could say that about any situation -- value bet if you're ahead, don't spew if you're behind, etc)

so how about this follow up -- you seem to advocate limping as opposed to raising with these types of hands...is that correct? if so, why would you prefer multiple opponents vs. fewer (with a raise) in this situation?

Thing is there isn't a certain degree of loose passiveness that we all agree is standard.

Is it a a nine handed table with one guy at the bathroom or 10 handed. Are we UTG or UTG +2. Are there no players or two players that will raise limpers. Do we expect to go 4 or 6 ways to the flop if we limp, will this number change if we raise? Is there somebody we can definitely stack with one pair?

I know you are saying in general, but these hands are on the borderline IMO so all these things can swing it.

I'm going to be mucking ATo UTG ten handed in most games I play but the exceptions are common enough that I disagree with your 1st post and would limp or raise, on occassion.

it depends
it depends
it depends
everything, everything is it depends.
i'm not stuttering, it just never seems to sink in, so...

but, ya, in most 1/2 games, -EV.

there are spots where i'm happily limp reraise shoving these hands, but they don't come up often.
it depends on countless factors, specifics of the hand, villians.

just making a point: don't think in terms of 'always' if you want to do well in poker, imo.

I dont actually prefer it, but it just is. And raising would be reversing the implied odds. Try this. Take KJo and deal out say 8 other hands. Kill say the first two hands and give us utg+2 limping. Look at all the hands that are dealt, and how many others would throw a chip in to see the flop with. (then put out a flop and see who hits it hard enough to withstand a lot of pressure) How do you like your hand? I like it pretty well, considering i will stab semi bluff at certain flops, gauging who wants to play etc. So i start with a better than avg hand PLUS figure to outplay the loose passives as they will tell me exactly how strong they are by what i do on the flop.

here is an example.

I limp, 3 others limp, BB checks. 25 in pot and say all are 100bb eff.

Hero KJo
Table full of weak passives

FLOP Q T 3 rainbow

chk, Hero stabs $10, fold, call,fold, fold

pot 45

Turn --- 4

Hero bets $15 into 45..........villain thinks 20 seconds, finally calls

River ----3

Hero bets $100 into 75

Villains range for calling will be 3x and nothing else except for the rarest of the blue moon galactaloid evasions. We will win this pot like 85-90% the time or better. We exploit villains weak passive tendencies and dont even allow him to slowplay as some nerdwads do from time to time as they just cannot possibly allow the turn to go $15 without raising 2pair+ etc. Impossible.

And this is a plan from the time the flop falls. Certainly yes there are cards we shut down on. T at the top of the list. But ordinarily we get villain to put passive dead money in the pot, then just rob him of it.



Note: Any thinking player who knows polarization may hero call here. But most avg live player will look at their QT or KT and look at that $100 bet and just fold. And BTW. Getting player to put money in the pot like this, THEN making them fold the best hand is where huge reciprocal profit is. NOT when we have AA and trap them with QQ for a big chunk of dough. We hardly really make anything from those plays and is why most players dont understand why they dont win more than they do.

stealing dead money, orphan pots, and making weak yet better hands fold is where the superb players get their winrate. If you as a player are only playing solid hands and hoping for someone else to make a mistake, you might win alright, but only crumbs compared to the feast that the tremendous players make.

My thoughts are if these hands are +EV at all, you are not missing much.

I often throw these hands away from EP.

level

Not sure about KJ but AJ and KQ are ahead of most passive players range and theyre passive players so they'll let you know when youre severely beat pre and postflop.

The time when you shouldn't be raising in EP is at an exactly opposite table with aggressive players that 3bet light IP

AJ, KQ will always be profitable at almost every table. at loose passive tables, raise pre if you can get it down to one or two callers. otherwise, limp and take them to valuetown when they limp in with weak aces and suited king rags, etc. way too much value to throw these hands away

Raising these in EP seems fine with me, also I don't hate limping...

I usually raise AJ, KQ, and fold KJ.

Holy ****! I am Sabr-like.

I typically raise AJ and KQ. Exceptions are made depending upon who is in late position and stack sizes.
I almost always fold KJ (exception: if late position players are playing snug/folding against me and the blinds are fishy defenders I will raise it.)

in a strict math type sense it will always be plus ev.(given a passive table no aggressive isoers)
-in a strict sense your your limping kj etc and they are limping a rang of any two cards, anything suited k2, bc's join the party "lets see a flop first" etc etc "pot odds"
so you are getting like 8-1 and your hand vs their ranges should fair much better than 11% equity at a limp happy passive table.

-anything after preflop is just more extra plus ev and extra gravy.
-ie) being able to read players better than they read you
-stuff like the examples ANL is giving.


if we are losing money at this kind of table by limping a range that dominates our opponents then it would be a sign not of -ev preflop play but rather we are having leaks or being outplayed/exploited postflop vs the flipside. eg)stacking off with toptop vs the nutpeddler omc who is set mining, or similarly running semibluffs rationalizing our play by deluding ourselves of fold equity into a passive that is being aggressive and just never folding.

damn you guys must get really good hands live all the time. when you get 94o and q2s for the past hour I can't imagine throwing away AJ+, QK, KJ

Sick bump. If people are calling with worse Ax and Kx raise for value, if not fold pf.