I haven't played much this year and didn't have a good read on anyone at the table from the past other than to say V1 hadn't got out of line at all and V2 I do know a little from prior games and tends to overvalue made but not nutted hands.

I'm in middle position

V2 ~$200 limps
Hero: $330 raises to $18 with JJ, suits won't matter
V1 ~$400 on the button raises to $50
V2 Calls $50????
Other are all folds


Hero should do what here? Again, V2 hasn't got out of line and I'm not sure I want to be playing for stacks when I'm either way behind or flipping and V2 still gets to act while I'm holding just JJ.

Please think through that prior to clicking the spoiler.

Why? Calling and re-evaluating is fine. V1 probably wont be bluffing much with V2 in the hand.

Now OTF this is a very ****ty spot because you are much deeper vs V1. Wouldn't fault you for folding. Any live reads on V1?

Just flat call. We could be ahead and are getting a great price. A fold is too tight, and a 4 bet only gets better hands to call and worse to fold, except maybe AK might be calling.

I think we labeled V1 and V2 differently. Against the player who has me covered the only read I have is that he hasn't shown up with anything out of line in the roughly three hours he's been there. In other words, I don't see his three bet pre as a bluff, but I have zero idea what his 3-bet range is. Against most players in this room it's QQ+ and AK, but I haven't played enough with him to know if 99+ fits in that range. I feel like it doesn't.

Also, I feel like the V that limped for $3 and called another $47 likely has 99/TT and maybe (though unlikely given my holding) JJ. This blocks a ton of combos that could sneak into his 3-beat range.

I'm left with really only AK that I'm ahead of pre flop. I snap call the V sho shoved the flop if the other V isn't still to act behind me.

If you thought JJ was behind preflop, why would flop change your mind?

If you thought QQ+/AK is in V's range, then clearly this is not a bad flop. You are now ahead of 16 of V's 34 combos and given the amount of dead money already in the pot, it's an +EV call.

So you have to decide whether you think V is only 3betting with QQ+ or QQ/AK.

You are well ahead of V1's range, very little argument there.

Highly doubt he's 3betting light in this spot and if he is, props to him.

If it's QQ+/AK, it's a pretty easy call. 99+ would just make it even easier.

Flip a coin or make some reads.

I'm probably sigh calling.

Easy money

I would call. V1 should not be jamming with AK with no side pot and if he jams you drawing to 2 outs so you can easily fold your equity.

uhg I hate it when fish ruin your hand with their spastic play like this. V2 is a moron and you clearly beat him but we have no idea what V1 has, so V2 is basically gonna make us play for stacks vs everyone and get felted vs a possible QQ+. We have to call and just hope V1 had AK and lets it go. I doubt many players exploit the button but there's always that .02% chance V1 has TT+ or complete air.

Haven't read the spoiler.

The thing with jacks is that you have decide early on whether you are going to play them like a big pair (QQ+) or a medium pair (88-TT). If you call, you're playing them as a medium pair and looking to set mine/steal. If you are set mining, your IO in this situation is about 400/32 or 12:1. Given the effective SPR is going to 2:1, it is ok because an OP can't fold. Stealiing will be harder because you're oop to the pfr and the villain can't fold his OP.

Folding isn't a bad option since you don't want to play for stacks. Given the low SPR, you will be playing for stacks if you call a flop bet. Can you fold JJ on a 964 two tone board to a cbet?

Of course if the villain was 3betting light, you could look at a 4bet. But again, that would be risking stacks.

So I'd call because my 3bet call range needs to be wider than QQ+ even though I suspect that calliing will be -EV in the long run.

I think this is actually the main decision point of the hand. I'm not sure I should or should not be playing for stacks with JJ out of position to the three-bet pre. I just feel like at this level a three-bet pre is always QQ+ or AK. Maybe I'm projecting my own nitty range and that's the true leak here.

Given that the main villain's hand is unlikely to be JJ (but could be) I have to decide if he's doing this with 88-TT because lower than that I don't really see anyone in the room three-betting and even those are rare. If I call pre I'm really hoping he has AK, which is a strong possibility and when I fade the A or K on the flop I guess I feel like I have to go with it to the bitter end.

Again, the main question that needs answered is do we call pre with JJ and and commit to play for stacks with it?

Well, V2 is capped preflop. The BTN May be raising a little light in position. Of course, I had JJ a few days ago and lost a big pot in a similar situation when the BTN had KK. So we cannot be sure. I don’t like playing JJ 3-way in the middle. I’d probably reraise to try to get V2 out or I’d just fold preflop.

AP: unless we’re going to put V2 in exactly QQ, I think we can call off. I’m guessing we’re ahead of his limp/overcall range. In this case we gotta hope BTN re-raised light and hope we don’t run into KK like I did the other day lol.

If this is your feeling it’s an ez fold. Calling vs 2 is set mining in this situation. You also will have little fold equity rejamming with all the action already in.

Think I would typically just fold here preflop. We're not getting the setmining odds and will be OOP to the 3better. Pot is only going to go 3ways where raiser might continue to cbet with whiffed AK (thus stealing lots of pots when we're actually ahead, or otherwise, what, we're calling a cbet on 9 high boards and hoping for the best?).

Wonky postflop spot as obviously we should be ahead of V2 but we shouldn't be willing to commit against V1 (which a call will do). Probably tank for a while to see if I can pick up on what V1 is about to do.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I would agree that folding pre is default consideration and that there would need to be better read to consider flatting or 4-bet.

LLSNL games are not reflective of poker you see on TV. Average players do not have a wide 3betting range. Those who do, players who pay close attention can spot them.