Hello community! Since a couple of weeks I'm been playing in super juice live games where 80% of the players limp call atc preflop and peel every flop with every holding and make huge mistake postflop . I know I have to play fast my strong holdings, but what about speculative hands as 78s, A4s, 77, and QTs etc. ? I normally Raise these hands too IP but in these games I bloat the pot and see the flops ALWAYS multiway ? Have I to overlimp and play a pot multiway ? These games are very juicy but they are also variance booster . I need help !


Sorry for the bad English !

Hands like middle pocket pairs and suited aces play well in multiway limped pots, even out of position. As for suited connectors, you should be able to play them profitably from in position by limping or raising, Raising is more optimal but you definitely don't want to be in a spot where you raise them in middle position if you are going to have multiple players with superior position call you.

This is the ultimate high variance situation.

You wrote: "Raising is more optimal but you definitely don't want to be in a spot where you raise them in middle position if you are going to have multiple players with superior position call you."

I think you just need to play fit or fold and play only very strong hands. Don't honk there's much strategy to be played. Wait for the nuts.

if you're playing position well, you still have an advantage over your opponents. go ahead and limp behind if you don't think Alan isatoon raise will work.

I'm confused, are you looking to reduce the variance? The reality is the more profitable game, the more variance there will be. Anything you do to reduce the variance will reduce your profits. That is, unless you're a losing player in that game. In that case, make sure you are playing better cards than your opponents.

EZ game.

I'm not looking to reduce the variance , I'm looking to take the most EV+ line. I don't know if Raise hands as QTs or 89s in position and getting 5 calls with a little SPR is gonna be more EV+ than limp behind and play a pot in position with a good hand and a big SPR. These players make a ton of big mistakes post flop so I think it's better to play against them with a big SPR



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The most +EV line is to out play them by playing better cards and have them put lots of money in behind. My guess is that when you raise pf and they miss on the flop, they fold to whoever hit. Limping behind is a mistake.

Two mistakes that loose passives make are:
-They check when they should have bet.
-They call when they should have folded.

To exploit them:
-Don't bet for them when they check instead of betting.
-Don't raise when they should have raised themselves but just call.
-Raise your standards for calling when they don't check, since they only bet the best of the hands they should be betting. (They are loose, but they are also passive.)
-Make sure you bet when they make incorrect calls.
-Don't bet so much that you make them fold correctly.

I'm assuming 100+bb stacks and raises are getting called in 3+ spots. If you can get three streets often against top pair, I'd limp like 22-99, 54s+, 64s+, AJ+, KQ+ from early. Loosen up in position. I'd only raise TT+, AQ+ from all positions since I expect to get multiple calls. This way you're basically never dominated and get confidently stack off with top pair in raised pots on almost any flop. Don't run big bluffs and play ABC

raise all value hands, don't bluff, check back medium strength hands.

It should be pretty clear limping is optimal here. Raising light pre when you know you will get 3+ callers is spew. You are forced to play fit or fold in these spots and it will be hard to bluff all villains out. Limp in wide in position, raise and bet pot pot pot on all streets with your strong hands and go for thin value.

This. Make pairs, stack money.

Okay, here's my shot at answering such an open-ended question.


To take advantage of this sort of table, we need to have a LAGgy style. To make a profit, we need to build pots, and since they aren't building pots, we have to do all of the work. We raise when we have a card advantage, or a positional advantage.

As villains adjust, we will need to change our strategy. As our own conditions change -- our image is hurt because we just lost a big pot, our confidence is shaken because we just lost a big pot, we are getting tired, we actually aren't that much better than this table yet, etc. -- we should also tighten up. This is a general guideline. It's meant to be tweaked, not only away from the table, but also during a session. And please alter it to your own style. If you aren't good at playing suited connectors in raised pots, just limp with them instead of raising in LP.

Table conditions: Preflop, villains limp/call crap. Limped pots are common. Post-flop, villains rarely raise without a big made hand or monster draw. Villains are predictable and straightforward players, either passive calling stations or ABC fit-or-fold.

Truth is, tables like this are rare. But tables that are like this excepting one or two opponents are extremely common. And those one or two good players usually have crap and fold preflop most of the time, so I follow this strategy a lot.


1. In EP/MP, raise 5bb + 1 per limper with a range that is ahead of what people will call with. UTG, this will be 99+, AQ+, KQs. Since my range is so strong UTG, I will often bump up my sizing to 6bb. One before the HJ, this range should transform into 77+, ATo+, A8s+, KQo, KJs. Our raising range should gradually open up from one to the other. If 5bb + 1 doesn't work, we move up 1bb until we find the sweet spot. More on this later.

2. In EP/MP, we limp along with low PP, suited broadways, and suited connectors hoping to flop gin.

3. From the HJ on, the way we are playing changes completely. We raise almost all playable hands, trying to get pots heads up or 3 way. Our range on the HJ should be: 44+, ATo+, QJs+, KJo, KQo+. Our range from the button: 22+, A9o+, 89s+, T8s+, two broadway cards, AXs. If it's working well, add K5s-7s. If people are openly terrified of us, may as well add Q8s-9s. CO is somewhere in between these two ranges.

We begin by raising 5bb + 1bb per limper. (Although on the button, since my range is so wide, I start at 4bb+1). For example, after 4 limps in a 1/3 game, we raise to $27. Is a $27 raise really going to go four ways? If so, we bump it to 6bb+1bb. Still not folding? 7bb+1bb. As we increase our raise size, we should strengthen our range. If we are worried about them limp/calling hands that dominate us, we move the bottom end of that raising range into the limping range. Again, when we limp, we are playing the hand completely differently (trying to flop gin). The rest of this mini-guide deals with the times that we raise big pre, either abusing them with our cards from EP/MP, or abusing them with our position from LP.

Note: when we raise this big, we often take down the pot preflop. Winning $16 preflop (4 limps + $1 + $3 in my game) with AA is fine. That's almost an hour's worth of work for me. Winning $16 preflop with QJo is a huge victory.

4. From LP, we can limp really weak suited stuff like 56s, 79s. Hoping to flop gin.


5. C-bet the flop.

Okay okay, I guess it's not that simple. But seriously, I probably cbet the flop like 80 or 90% against bad players. It shows an automatic profit since they fold too much, and when they call, I make even more money when I actually have/improve to a strong hand.

6. As we watch and play, we categorize opponents into 3 types:

1) fit-or-fold villains

2) villains who peel the flop light but can't take a big turn barrel. It is very important, and easy, to spot these villains. They call the flop all the time and fold to a turn bet. When you see this happen, take note. We make a lot of money double-barreling villains who call the flop with a huge, weak, diluted range, and then find folds on the turn.

3) calling stations

7. We cbet the flop often when it's heads up or 3-way and we are IP. I rarely cbet air OOP into 2 opponents. If the pot went multiway, we do not bluff. Position, flop texture, and our holding matter.

If we have a strong hand, we always cbet (exception: top set on a dry board).

If we have a medium strength hand IP, we cbet wet boards and dry boards. OOP, we are playing real poker with our medium strength hands. Sometimes it's warranted to bet/bet the flop and turn against a calling station with a weak made hand on a wet board.

If we have air IP, we cbet both dry boards and wet boards when against fit-or-fold opponents.

If we have air OOP on a dry board, we cbet all three opponent types. Yes, cbetting calling stations is profitable. Even calling stations will fold like 55% of the time to a 1/2 pot cbet. If he floats us, he's not a calling station and this strategy no longer applies. If we have air OOP on a wet board, we check/fold to all opponents.

8. If we get raised by a passive player from the flop on, we don't pay them off with medium strength hands.


9. We have now narrowed the field usually. From here on, being IP should push our air strategy towards betting, and being OOP towards giving up. This is true against all opponents on all boards.

If our hand is strong, we continue betting all opponents. If a really nasty scare card came off, I might check it against fit-or-fold opponents to try and get another bet from them on the river, but most of the time I continue to bet.

When holding air against a fit-or-fold opponent, we barrel scare cards and shut down on blanks. If he calls our barrel, we pay close attention to how uncomfortable he is and decide whether to bluff the river.

When we held a medium strength hand and got called on the flop by a fit-or-fold, we may as well have air. So, just like above, we bet scare cards and shut down if the turn is a blank.

Against the most extreme "Type 2" (see above) opponents, I'm barreling almost all turns with almost all hands. Sometimes they will be slowplaying something big, but we get so many folds from them and it's just super profitable. Sometimes they hit the flush we are representing, but they often have middle pair instead and fold it. Sometimes the turn is a blank and they decided to call your flop bet with bottom pair to see what you would do on the turn, and now they will fold it. Again, against certain opponents, we can barrel 99% of turns with 99% of hands. If this opponent calls our turn bet when we have air, we shut down.

Against calling stations ("Type 3"), we just play our hand. If it's relatively strong, we bet. If we have air, we shut down completely. If we have a medium strength hand on a wet board and the turn is a blank, I'm barreling the turn expecting to get called by worse often. If we have a medium strength hand that we cbet on a dry board, I'll slow down, unless they really call down with 2nd or 3rd pair and we can beat those. We do not barrel if we have a draw. Instead, we check for free cards. It's just really stupid for us to put money in on the turn when we are 20 or 30% to hit; this is handing money away. The way I learned this was by triple-barreling a calling station on a KQ board with JT. I was on the button and he was in the blinds. I bet every street huge, ending with a $250 river bet, expecting him to fold top pair. Nope, he called me with K7o (one toppest pair). I realized I should have just checked behind on the turn for a freebie.

River

10. By now, the board has often changed. I'm not going into much detail here, so I'll try and stick to the obvious.

If the top card hasn't changed and we can beat top pair, I'm bet/folding the river most of the time against all opponents. Actually, I forgot to mention it earlier, but against these opponents we are pretty much bet/folding every street.

11. When these opponents get all the way to the river, they usually want to see a showdown and have a hand they like. We shouldn't be bluffing the river much. Two exceptions:

1) a fit-or-fold opponent who hated calling our turn bet (bluff big if the situation/read is right)

2) a type 2 when the board has completely bricked (bluff small to fold out ace high flush draws, etc.)

12. On the other hand, we should be value betting the river a lot. Again, they aren't folding much. We can make a small bet with 2nd pair against a station and get called by worse. If our hand is huge, and we might get payed off by some random two pair, we go for a prison rape against the stations. Yes, I'm advocating our hand strength determining our raise size. They won't notice. If they do, and raise our tiny bets, we can start to play the "induce spazz" game, but now we are beyond the scope of this guide.


P.S. This is pretty much how I play when I'm faced with a really loose, weak table and I'm trying to run it over to make a nice profit. Not covered:

stack depth,

any specific hand situations (what is a medium strength hand and what's a strong hand? which boards are wet, which are dry? etc.),

bet sizing (my standard is 2/3rds-3/4th pot, but there are many situations where I deviate from this),

adjusting when opponents adjust (believe me, if I'm playing this LAGgy, I will get glares from my opponents as they fold, and I often get check-raised later),

considering who has position on us,

who is in the blinds,

and who limped,

avoiding bad bets (bets that fold worse and get called by better),

blind raising ranges (hint: very strong),

and many other topics.

The most important points (cliff notes):

1. We almost never slowplay our strong hands. When we are betting so much, we need our betting range to be strong. If we bet weak hands and slowplay strong ones, we are playing anti-poker. Small hand/big pot, big hand/small pot? Yuck.

2. Yes, we can cbet calling stations. Just not more than one. And we are one-and-done with air. Draws too.

3. We must sniff out the players who peel the flop light and then fold the turn (I swear this is where most of my profit comes from these days).

4. We do not pay off these passive players when they raise.

Even if this guide has flaws – and I'm sure it has many – I hope you will find some useful parts, OP.

What amazes me now (after spewing a bunch of ideas out here) is how rich and complex this game is, even against the most straightforward opponents. Once we are up against tricky opponents, we have to consider depolarizing our cbets, checking back medium strength hands, or changing our lines, etc. But even without all those considerations, there's still a million different things to think about. Cool.

Good luck.

Tank you all Guys, a lot of good advice hier

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Your guide is Nice, but I think its good only against fit fold players that play only loose preflop. what do you make with your speculative holdings ip when you face 5-7 limps and do you know minimum 3 will call a big Raise preflop , and call flop and turn with any holdings that connect on the flop and with top pair no kicker are not folding any street . I think Raise hands as suited connectors or one gapper Is just burning money . I don't speak of players that play fit or fold , I speak of players that will call with any holdings. I think Raise big Pre with such hands Is not the optimal play here .


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I stopped reading here.

Damn, I was wanting to read that post later as it appears from afar to have some real good info in it but agree that you don't want to play LAGgy at a table like that. You can burn through money real quick if you do that.

Your post is meaningless if you don't explain why.

Playing LAG at a table like that is basically trying to bluff a bunch of calling stations.

I knew that post would generate some criticism/controversy and I'm glad it did.

I want to clarify a few things:

1) we are relying on getting the pot heads up/3-way with our huge raise sizes. If raising to $36 is seriously getting 5 callers, we just stop raising suited connectors (limp those along) and we raise value hands only.

However, I do not think that $36 raises actually get that many callers at a limpy table. People complain "my raises get so many callers no matter how big I raise," but many haven't actually tried raising that big. They just raise 5bb and assume bigger raises will get called, too. Seriously, next time you get AK, raise to 11bb and see what happens. Try it for yourself. I will be amazed if you actually get 4 callers. Believe me, I've played at many of these tables. Raises that big do not get that many callers. If they do, then obviously don't raise 67s like that; that's burning money.

(The reason why I think that many posters don't actually raise big enough is because I see many threads where someone raises 5bb and gets called in 4 spots, and then someone like GG says "you should raise bigger," and they say, "but my raises always get called." But I don't actually see any threads where someone's raising $30 pre with AK.)

2) Some of the so-called "calling stations" are actually the type-2 opponents who fold to turn bets.

I think there is a tendency for posters here to see a player who calls cbets 90% of the time and think "calling station."

But there are many players who call the flop 90% of the time only to fold the flop 60% of the time to a 3/4ths size double barrel. As you can see, double-barreling this opponent will show instant profit, even if we always lose when called (which is not true). I think it is crucial to differentiate between these players and TRUE calling stations.

That said, if you are really at a table with 8 calling stations and 0 type-1 or type-2 opponents, I have a guide for you:


Table Conditions: Us against 8 super stations who limp/call any two cards preflop, and call down with any pair or any draw postflop.

1. Raise preflop for value only. Limp speculative hands. The difference between these is mostly obvious so I won't go into detail. When raising for value, raise as much as they will call. Whether that's 5bb+1, 6bb+1, or 10bb+1. In the most extreme exaggerated case, if they will call a $600 shove with 76s, shove 88+/AQ+.

2. If the pot is heads up and we whiffed, we cbet 50% of the pot. Even against calling stations, this will show an automatic profit if they are straightforward. Cbet always when heads up. I don't care if they are calling stations, they still miss the flop 2/3rds of the time. If we happened to get it 3-way, we should still cbet when checked to IP on a dry flop when we have some equity (mid pair, overs, gutshot, bdfd, etc). It's thin, but both are still folding often. (0.66 * 0.66 = 0.43. If we can cbet half the pot and they both fold 43% of the time, that combined with our pot equity should show a profit.) We're not cbetting a wet flop against 2 calling stations when we whiff though. And if we have 3+ callers, we never cbet air.

3. When we hit a hand that's ahead of their calling range, bet/bet/bet.

I don't think this table actually exists....I've never seen one, at least. But if you play at this sort of table regularly OP, this is how you beat it.

Side note: if we lose a big pot or two, they will station us with Q-high and we should stop betting except when we have a hand.

If we stack a couple of them with TPTK, we will have a more fearsome image, and some of these super-stations will turn into the type-2 opponents against us.

The way to figure this out is NOT to start barreling air to test them out. Instead, the way we figure it out is to continue our previous strategy and barrel them with TP+. And if they fold the turn to us, our ears should perk up. We don't adjust just yet though; calling stations have a lot of difficulty changing their ways. If they fold the turn to us twice, that's when I re-categorize them as type-2 and start barreling air.

Limping along with everyone and rarely raising is better than trying to get heads-up at a loose-passive table by making over-sized pre-flop raises. For sufficiently large raises, a loose-passive player will have the same calling range as a tight-passive player.

My general advice is to quit being afraid and learn how to play poker in multi-way pots.

Good thread, helped me clear up some questions I had about adjusting from online to live low stakes...

AsianNit - good point, any resources you'd recommend to learn about playing optimally n multi-way pots specific to llsnl? Thanks.

Most important to me is "think before action". When I am in games like this, pairs aren't worth to much to me. I want to be in there with suited connectors and suited one gappers from most positions 'only' as long as it is a limp fest.

The reason for limping is we rarely flop the nut. You want wiggle room to be able to bet or call a bet where the bet size isn't generated by pot bloat.

When you hit the nut decide how to get maximum $$ in the pot. Either collect many chips from more players, or ai from one player. Variance is your friend in these games. Two or three big pots is all you need for a great night.

Yea no doubt, I'm finding this to be true at my local live games.. pretty much a limp fest, so there's not often super compelling reasons to be opening huge. Of course adjust accordingly with reads and table dynamics, but for the most part typically the limp fest doesn't change much.

I'm gonna research on more specifically about sorting out a strategy for multi-way pots specific to llsnl as it's typically a family pot more often than not at these stakes.

I think Dunderstron! has really hit the nail over the head here. This is exactly how I play versus these LP tables.

People seem to be a bit concerned about going into hands post flop where the pot is bloated from our preflop raise and our holdings are not necessarily, shall we say, stellar. This is exactly what we want, though. This way our cbets can be meaningful. I'm not looking to take ANY of my hands to showdown, I'll leave that to the guys who are looking to trade coolers and pay rake. I'm looking for that pain threshold, where even that "calling station" is chucking TP and "waiting for a better spot". I have never failed to find it yet.

Look, if you guys think you can make a profit at this table because you "win more with your good hands", and "lose less when you are beat", that's cool. I'll just be running over the table while you are waiting to hit that hand.....