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Advice to MAWG TAG ABC Player Advice to MAWG TAG ABC Player

01-21-2016 , 12:14 PM
I'm a rec player longer on book smarts (buy a lot of books, read a lot of threads) rather than experience. Been playing about 5 years about ~12 times a year. I don't keep track, but I'd say I'm probably somewhere around marginally ahead $ wise. I'm not rich, but I'm comfortable, and none of this has any material impact on me or my lifestyle.

Here's my play style:


Pre:
- I very rarely open limp; perhaps in early position with low pps
- If I'm first, I'll come in with a raise with premium hands AJs+, AQo+, 88+, KQs+ from EP and widen MP and Late position.
- I'll limp behind with SCs, low-medium PPs, hands with high implied odds. I'll never ever limp with things like K4o or J6s
- I'll never limp or limp behind 99+, AQs+, AKo
- I tend to limp behind in LP with things like ATs, AJo rather than raise unless I'm first in
- I'll play RIO hands rarely or very carefully, things like Ax off or KJo.
- I don't thin value bet much
- I will occasionally slow play, but finds this gets me into trouble more often than not

Post:
- I'll often c-bet 2 or 3 way, but rarely 4 way plus unless I have the goods.
- I rarely double barrel air, and I don't think I've ever triple barreled air
- I'll call with my drawing hands, if I think the IO is there (I know my odds well), though will occasionally raise
- I'll generally not float, and give up quickly to strength - I'm most definitely not a calling station
- I rarely bluff, and almost never bluff in big pots, or take high variance bluffing lines. If I bluff/c-bet air on flop/turn, and get called, I almost never follow it up on the next street unless I hit.
- I don't pick off many bluffs, and nearly always get it wrong when I do.
- I rarely spew chips, but I have a weakness for over pairs

I do well against tight old regs or loose passive, but I struggle with LAGs. In summary I think you guys would tag me as a "MAWG, ABC, not creative, plays fit or fold"

A couple of things:
1) Is being marginally winning this way just luck over a small sample size, or can you tend to stay even/just ahead in 1/2 playing this way?
2) What should I do to start being more creative? What things should I try first?
3) Any books you'd recommend to help me get to the next level? I've read Harrington's cash books, but he doesn't get very creative.

Thanks in advance, and no, I'm not going to come and play at your table!

Last edited by hitchens97; 01-21-2016 at 12:25 PM.
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01-21-2016 , 12:23 PM
My advice. Keep it up. This is winning play at LLSNL. Take advantage of your image to add some semi-bluffs and occasional river bluffs against the guys who are good enough to put you on a MAWG ABC range and good enough to fold.
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01-21-2016 , 02:48 PM
You seem to be doing the mostly right things. One suggestion I would make is do not let yourself be confined in your play by the rules you have determined are best.

Table personality changes quickly, sometimes over a couple of hands. Try to be a little flexible. Other than that you are way ahead of half of the competition!
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01-21-2016 , 03:15 PM
1. You'll always win long-term if you start with better hands than your opponents but you'll never crush the game.

2. Start re-raising light pre-flop to branch out your play. If there are a few limps in front of you make it $20 to go with hands like Kx. Not all the time of course but its good to mix it up. Definitely up your double barrel frequency, lots a players will peel with mid-pair/bottom-pair +SD but will fold to more pressure on latter streets.

Ask yourself these questions when in a hand.

What is my opponent's range? Am I ahead of that range?
What is my perceived range? Is my perceived range ahead of my opponent's perceived range?

If they are capped - bomb.

3. Get Caro's book on tells, old but classic. Obviously the bible, Super System. Nothing is more important than experience.
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01-21-2016 , 04:10 PM
Fight LAGs preflop and IP. Postflop OOP against a LAG is a big disadvantage, but one that can be exploited. Check-raise and barrel later streets. Check-raising rivers against LAGs also is a good move, because they rarely check down rivers and bet very wide. Check-raising rivers against LAGs has won me a lot of pots I shouldn't have won lol..

Be ready to 4-bet hands you're willing to GII with. If somebody opens in MP, for example, and the LAG 3-bets, you 4-bet/jam hands like AKo (not a hard and fast rule, but you're generally going to be away ahead of his LP 3-betting range).
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01-21-2016 , 04:13 PM
You are playing quite well – nice job. My situation is extremely similar to yours, though I’m older, but have a young daughter.

I began playing/tracking $1/$2NL NLHE in 2011 after learning at LHE. I think it is critical you begin tracking, which will answer #1). I even began tracking my VPIP/PFR.

Thin value betting took some learning and has become easier as my ranging of opponents improved. Your hourly will definitely increase.

Given your image, bluffing could be another value-add if done in the correct spots. Targeting thinking players and not stations; build a strong line across all streets. Still, LLSNL bluffing should be minimal, imho.

LAGs - I try to gain a positional advantage by requesting seat changes. Try to see as many of their cards as possible. This will help construct a range and facilitate your decision-making.

GL!
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01-21-2016 , 06:46 PM
It sounds like you need to make a hand to win a pot. You want to play so that your opponents usually need to make hands to win. The way to improve this is to seriously amp up your hand reading and your understanding of physical tells (Zachary Ellwood has several good books) and bet-sizing tells. And then just start playing back at people you think are weak. Raise them on the flop, raise them on the turn, float them until the river then bet. Just start trying out lines whenever you think the villain is weak. You'll win a lot of pots and you'll lose a lot of pots in instructive ways.

There are some stations that you should generally not bluff, but the prevalence of such players is overstated. Most LLSNL players play a lot of hands and then fold everything that's not good to sufficient pressure, which leaves them folding a lot. Rather than using lazy generalities like thinking that LLSNL players never fold, it's better to try to get a concrete sense of how much pressure they need to release a marginal hand (Is it just a c-bet? A turn barrel? A big river bet?) and then try to apply that much pressure but no more in a lot of spots.
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01-21-2016 , 07:45 PM
hitchens97 -

1. Don't bother with Super System, buy this one instead:
http://www.amazon.com/No-Limit-Hold-.../dp/188068537X

2. What are you so afraid of preflop? You ask what you can do to be more creative, yet you already know the answer, you're just reluctant to try it out.

3. If you want a "safe" creative outlet, get Ed's book: http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Starte.../dp/1880685345 and play his short stack style. You'll still be starting out with better hands than your opponents so the risk is minimal preflop, and the aggressive postflop play regardless of the board will help you get past any concerns about postflop bluffing. A lot of people HATE this style because they don't know how to adjust to it, but for you it might help you see another way to play and once you've got it down, it will give you a low risk / high reward ticket into a bigger game where you'll play with better players and be exposed to some more "creative" thinking.
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01-21-2016 , 10:47 PM
-Value bet thinner
-Open lighter, especially in position, especially against weak tight tables
-3! light once in a great while
-Get used to being terrified when firing two (and three) barrels (but not often), especially when good scare cards hit

Since you have a reasonable ABC mawg strategy down, maybe take a look at Playing the Player and think about how you can use the advice therein.
Advice to MAWG TAG ABC Player Quote
01-22-2016 , 04:05 AM
It sounds like you're doing a lot of the right things, but I think it's going to be hard to make substantial improvement without investing more time in your game. Basic ABC/TAG strategy is what players learn first because you don't need super-sharp hand reading in order to be profitable with it and it gives you a really strong base of skills to build off of. Hand reading is the key to moving beyond ABC/TAG, and that is a skill that is very difficult to learn without more hours at the table because, unlike "What should my UTG opening range be?", it's a question about other players, not yourself, so you need to see a lot of hands and pay attention to how people play to improve.

If you have time, consider depositing a little $ online and play a few thousand/a few tens of thousands of hands at micros. The games will likely play a lot different than you're used to live, but that isn't the point -- it's just a good way to see a billion flops and get used to different board textures and how they affect villains' hand ranges. Running a HUD while you do this will help you get used to different player types too (pay special attention to the 55 VPIP/6 PFR players, because you'll see them at the casino a lot more than the 24/22s).

Another thing you can do is just get a deck of cards and deal out a flop. Assume you're the pre-flop raiser and 1 villain called. How does V's range preflop range match up with the flop if he's a passive fish? A nit? How about if he's a strong player? A spewy aggro whale? Then go through a few different scenarios... Say he check/calls-- what type of hands he would be doing this with? What if he check/raised instead? What if he donked into you? Then deal a turn, then a river.

Also, Miller's "How to Read Hands at NL Hold'em" is a great title and improved my game immensely (and is where I got the "deal out a lot of flops" suggestion from).
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01-22-2016 , 04:15 PM
Guys really appreciate this... I think the summary points I'm taking is properly reading hands/players, being aware of tells, and using my image to make moves in those places.

I'm in Vegas for a couple of days next week, so will try this out. Suggestions for best 1/2 or 1/3?
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01-22-2016 , 04:25 PM
All good replies here. I'd add my weight to the "improve hand reading" opinion.

Learn to observe your opponents like a hawk.

Get a really good grip on different ranges and how they hit different board types.

Learn what different betting lines mean.

Get good at feeling the flow of the game and the table dynamic.

Psyche yourself up to take some higher variance lines both bluffing and value betting. Chalk any losses up to your education budget but keep track of them and don't get carried away.
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01-22-2016 , 09:24 PM
Don't limp behind. It reinforces bad tendencies. I mean your own, not theirs.

If you're opening from EP with KQs, think about extending that down to 98s. The rest of that range doesn't appear often, and it's so narrow it's exploitable. If you're playing 88 from that position, then 98s+ is probably fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
- I rarely spew chips, but I have a weakness for over pairs
If you start with an overpair, then they're drawing, right? So learn to recognize how a player will act when he makes his draw, and how he acts when he misses.

Last edited by BadlyBeaten; 01-22-2016 at 09:30 PM.
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01-22-2016 , 09:54 PM
Your story sounds a lot like mine. I sometimes have trouble breaking out of ABC mode. One thing that helped me is looking for double barrel spots, and thinking about what cards I'm going to barrel as I'm making my cbet.
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01-22-2016 , 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
Guys really appreciate this... I think the summary points I'm taking is properly reading hands/players, being aware of tells, and using my image to make moves in those places.

I'm in Vegas for a couple of days next week, so will try this out. Suggestions for best 1/2 or 1/3?

harrah's is historically super soft.
bally's is rumored to be good
V is a nice room, but nity regs?

So many rooms to cycle through at 1/2...
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01-23-2016 , 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
What should I do to start being more creative? What things should I try first?
Since you only play 12 times a year [BUMMER!] you have plenty of time to study. Sounds like you have plenty of books. Once we have developed a winning playing style, as you have, we look to improve our skill set. For me, it came from 2+2 more than any book. Well, maybe not so. Probably a combination of the two.

My improvement came primarily from the reading the COTMs found in the stickies & following the posters who were obviously much better than I. I could pick from over a dozen names to start with. When someone asks me who, I usually say any one of a number of players, because you'll find the other top notch players posting in their OPs.

However, CAmmAndo is an enjoyable read, but he doesn't post as much as he use to. He use to go thru a lot of trouble of giving a detailed explanation for his reasoning. A very high quality poster & he's not a lone wolf. You can still read his old posts & his COTM is here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...tting-1550652/

It's on c-betting. A good checklist to memorize on c-betting, created by a pro I believe, is located here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...63&postcount=1

For some reason, all of the COTMs are not listed in the sticky. You can search for nothing but the title COTM in this forum, using the advanced search feature, and a get a list of all of them. If someone wrote one, they're probably a damn good player.

"I can say with full confidence, that if it had not been for 2+2 Publishing & their website, I would not have improved my game as quickly as I have over the last 12 months." - Zuneit.
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01-23-2016 , 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
1) Is being marginally winning this way just luck over a small sample size, or can you tend to stay even/just ahead in 1/2 playing this way?
2) What should I do to start being more creative? What things should I try first?
3) Any books you'd recommend to help me get to the next level? I've read Harrington's cash books, but he doesn't get very creative.
1. It's not just luck. You can beat 1/2NL doing what you're doing.
2. Exploit your image better. Before you make the ABC play, take a moment to consider the villains and review if there is a superior approach to your standard ABC decision. Try reducing your fit-or-fold default decisions when you have an opportunity, even if only 5% of the time.
3. NLH:T&P, as someone else already mentioned.
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01-23-2016 , 06:30 AM
You can absolutely, positively crush 1/2 into fine, granulated powder playing exploitative TAG.
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01-23-2016 , 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47
You can absolutely, positively crush 1/2 into fine, granulated powder playing exploitative TAG.
When I read that, this was what I was hearing in the background:

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01-23-2016 , 10:01 AM
Back to reality, the other piece of advice I thought of was bet sizing. I haven't worked this out yet myself, and it may be a lifetime learning experience.

It seems like the days that I'm "in a zone," my bets are the right sizes, and the days that my game is "falling apart," my bets are the wrong sizes.
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01-23-2016 , 10:10 AM
Why do you play?

Are you getting out of poker what you want?

If not, what is lacking from the experience?
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01-25-2016 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
Why do you play?

Are you getting out of poker what you want?

If not, what is lacking from the experience?
This is a good question. Mainly for fun; if I can get some more money out that would be great or at least be break even.

I'd also love not to get run over by LAGs, and I'd like to have the feeling that comes with making and succeeding with a big bluff more often.
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01-25-2016 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadlyBeaten
Don't limp behind. It reinforces bad tendencies. I mean your own, not theirs.

If you're opening from EP with KQs, think about extending that down to 98s. The rest of that range doesn't appear often, and it's so narrow it's exploitable. If you're playing 88 from that position, then 98s+ is probably fine.


If you start with an overpair, then they're drawing, right? So learn to recognize how a player will act when he makes his draw, and how he acts when he misses.
This is interesting because it wasn't said by others. Basically need to open up my EP range, and never overlimp. Do others agree? I'm sitting mid position with say 44 and big stack and a couple of early limpers, at loose passive table, I would usually limp. You're saying that it's a raise/fold decision?
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01-25-2016 , 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
This is a good question. Mainly for fun; if I can get some more money out that would be great or at least be break even.

I'd also love not to get run over by LAGs, and I'd like to have the feeling that comes with making and succeeding with a big bluff more often.
My suggestion is that you play more "playful" on an occasional basis.

Call down super light and make sure folks see it -- like 3rd pair (I'm not advising to call down with nothing, make sure you can beat bluffs).

Preflop, 3b and 4b light.

Talk a little smack. Offer to show one card and let the opponent choose which one then show only the other.

Raise every single button.

Min raise.

Limp/raise preflop.

See if you can get folks to play the "seven-duce game".

Take on the role of maniac.

~~~~~~~~~~

You don't have to play like this all the time.

Maybe once very 10 sessions go bat-**** crazy and let your hair down.
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01-25-2016 , 05:12 PM
Against LAGs specifically, station them relentlessly. If you have anything of value, just call them all the way down, then make them show first.

Very important, make them show first. Make them show the table how wide they're playing.

Hold your cards and politely tell them, "I called you, your turn to show", then sit there patiently until they either show or muck.
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