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Old 12-30-2015, 06:24 AM   #1
djevans
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AcKc 200bb deep.

1/3 home game with players very active and loose pre / and some are semi loose / aggressive post.

I don't think many of the players are grinders - but they all have deep pockets and some are loose and some are kinda scared money.

They all make a lot of mistakes though.

OTTH

Hero has $700 - a little over 200BB and gets dealt AcKc in mid position

Villian - UTG+2 is stuck and playing really loose. He doesn't like folding pre right now and he stacked me another day with 73hh vs my QQ when I made it $50 pre with 200 behind. So this guy probably isn't folding pre. - covers

UTG+2 makes it $15

It's on me and I decide to just call since I have position and i'm deep.
I could 3bet to $40 here but i don't want to lose my positional advantage if he decides to just jam with some random pocket pair and I think if i flop good i could win a decent pot from him.

BTN calls

BB calls


$60 pot

9c6c2h

Check
Check
Hero ???


Hero decides to bet $40

Im not sure about this bet and I don't hate it but is checking better?

BTN folds
Fold

Maniac raises to $140 and I range him on 2 pair+ or a bluff. I think if he had a flush draw or a pair he would of probably bet out himself and if he raises as a bluff here Its possible i don't have much.

So - call / jam

I think folding is out of the question
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Old 12-30-2015, 07:32 AM   #2
proBono
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

ugly spot.

as played:
Bet on the flop is good. I might make it just 30$ but that`s just a minor thing. after his c/r it`s a tough high variance spot.

If we are cool with getting it in ->making it 290 seems best as he may calls here and folds equity on the turn.

If you range him correctly flatting isn`t super bad as he could be trying to rep the hand that we have if the flush comes in or we hit top pair.

Folding can`t be very bad, as his most likely holdings are either crushing us or have 40% equity vs our hand.

-> high variance spot without a clear cut best play, imo.

In general:

This is a 3bet pre to isolate this drooler. Make it 45$ and don`t fold pre flop.
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Old 12-30-2015, 07:41 AM   #3
Hardball47
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Villain is the initial raiser and he flatted your 3!. What does this mean to you? To me, it generally means a high ace or a medium pair. Villain can't have much, based on your description. From the looks of it, your A and K are either live or dominating. Doubtful, he has A9/K9. I put villain on either AQ/AK/AJ or 77/88/1010/JJ (then again, he'd probably overplay the jacks pre), all of which you have either about 85% or 50% equity against, respectively. There's a small chance he has something like 87, which you're in decent shape against. You really can't fold, and you really can't call.

GII.
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Old 12-30-2015, 08:59 AM   #4
djevans
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

I didn't 3bet - i just called - i re read it and it's a tad confusing

Pot was only $60

Villain has a wide range and i'm assuming he has 2 pair+
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:00 AM   #5
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
Villain is the initial raiser and he flatted your 3!. What does this mean to you? To me, it generally means a high ace or a medium pair. Villain can't have much, based on your description. From the looks of it, your A and K are either live or dominating. Doubtful, he has A9/K9. I put villain on either AQ/AK/AJ or 77/88/1010/JJ (then again, he'd probably overplay the jacks pre), all of which you have either about 85% or 50% equity against, respectively. There's a small chance he has something like 87, which you're in decent shape against. You really can't fold, and you really can't call.

GII.
I have $645 left to play with -why can't I call?
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:03 AM   #6
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proBono View Post
ugly spot.

as played:
Bet on the flop is good. I might make it just 30$ but that`s just a minor thing. after his c/r it`s a tough high variance spot.

If we are cool with getting it in ->making it 290 seems best as he may calls here and folds equity on the turn.

If you range him correctly flatting isn`t super bad as he could be trying to rep the hand that we have if the flush comes in or we hit top pair.

Folding can`t be very bad, as his most likely holdings are either crushing us or have 40% equity vs our hand.

-> high variance spot without a clear cut best play, imo.

In general:

This is a 3bet pre to isolate this drooler. Make it 45$ and don`t fold pre flop.
so if i make it $45 and we get the same flop because he is never folding pre

are we never folding flop after we cbet $60??
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Old 12-30-2015, 11:35 AM   #7
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
I have $645 left to play with -why can't I call?
If you call, the pot is going to be $340 OTT. What happens when you call and miss, and your opponent bets $175-$225 or more? You'll have an SPR of about 2 with a lot less equity. It'll be a much uglier spot then. Better to take the initiative now when you have better pot and fold equity.
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Old 12-30-2015, 11:52 AM   #8
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

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Originally Posted by djevans View Post
Villian - UTG+2 is stuck and playing really loose. He doesn't like folding pre right now and he stacked me another day with 73hh vs my QQ when I made it $50 pre with 200 behind. So this guy probably isn't folding pre. - covers

UTG+2 makes it $15

It's on me and I decide to just call since I have position and i'm deep.
I could 3bet to $40 here but i don't want to lose my positional advantage if he decides to just jam with some random pocket pair and I think if i flop good i could win a decent pot from him.
This is a good reason to 3bet. You isolate a weak-loose player in position who will likely call your 3!. By calling, you risk the hand going multiway without the initiative.

As played, jam. You have 25% equity in the worst case scenario, 99/66. You have 45% equity in a more realistic scenario of 99-QQ/66. Throw in some random draws and you have more than enough equity to shove, plus any FE from mid-pp.
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:03 PM   #9
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

1) Another issue is how does V act after the Flop in general? You say he's never folding PF and that's fine, but I know a lot of V who never fold PF and play very well post.

2) Was he expecting a bet? What's your frequency here when he checks?

3) Did this board hit you? What's your expected PF raising/calling range? (See #2 also)

4) Will you get paid? 'Just' calling and getting no additional chips makes this -EV to hit. (similar to #1, V post Flop play)

5) Will V fold to aggression? This also applies to PF action.

6) V may be a station PF, but what about his opening range PF? Was your $50 QQ an opening bet or 3-bet?

7) Are you ready to reload? Will there be a better spot? Assuming V covers, yes?

You are never 'out' of this hand with the nut draw in your pocket. You could r/r and then calling it off would be close even against sets. I think V knows that this is not 'your' Flop (Are you 3-betting 99+ PF here?) but don't know enough about his potential range associated with an open and Flop c/r spot. I 'feel' more than willing to gii here, but I really sense TT+.

Players who see lots of Flops know how to negotiate them. If you really feel he is c-betting an over-pair here most of the time, then I'm ok with a r/r gii spot for a big pot. The other side of the coin says that you have 'nothing' and since this player does see lots of Flops that there may be a better spot to get his chips. GL
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:09 PM   #10
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

I don't like your call preflop can this Villan. I would raise to 45-60 and play aggressive

Not sure on how you put him on two pair on that ugly flop.

He's probably thinking that there is no way you hit the flop.

I'm not folding to his raise. I would call and reevaluate the turn.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:14 PM   #11
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Not to sure what effective are stacks are but this is a clear 3bet spot pre... As played we flopped huge, I'd actually argue that we should be betting closer to pot if not more than once checked to us. When we get c/r we should either min click to $300 or shove, folding isn't an option and calling seems meh. Our equity gets cut in half if/when we miss OTT and we will no longer have initiative in the hand and potential be forced to fold depending on V's sizing.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:36 PM   #12
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

never folding. the good thing about our hand is that either V has smaller clubs, or, he doesn't have any clubs and is repping 2 pair +. either way, that makes us favorites, or only 45/55 dogs to his 2 pair type hand.

I would click it back to 375 and expect him to either fold or shove. but flatting is a mistake as there are just so many flush draws in his range that if we flat and the turn bricks, we are most likely going to get outplayed.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:43 PM   #13
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
so if i make it $45 and we get the same flop because he is never folding pre

are we never folding flop after we cbet $60??
of course not, but I am actually checking back here a lot in a 3bet pot with all the equity while only getting called with hands that have us beat or good equity and we need to fire away if we don`t hit.

I think checking behind here in a 3bet Pot vs described villain is by far the best play.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:46 PM   #14
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proBono View Post
of course not, but I am actually checking back here a lot in a 3bet pot with all the equity while only getting called with hands that have us beat or good equity and we need to fire away if we don`t hit.



I think checking behind here in a 3bet Pot vs described villain is by far the best play.

We likely have little to no showdown value. Why would you be advocating checking behind against said Villain, especially on such a wet board where V can have worse draws in his range...
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:51 PM   #15
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
We likely have little to no showdown value. Why would you be advocating checking behind against said Villain, especially on such a wet board where V can have worse draws in his range...
We have massive showdown value (& a top draw) and will improve a lot to hands that villain could rep as a bluff.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:04 PM   #16
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Grunch- per description 3-bet to 50 you said V doesn't fold pre- and 3-betting will most likely get you hu against a weaker player over 200BB deep, yes please...

Flop: easy bet/ raise go 275 (or just shove), jam turn, I like the sizing on the flop multi-way

Last edited by kimoser22; 12-30-2015 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 12-30-2015, 07:25 PM   #17
djevans
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

ya i do wish I 3bet pre

I ended up calling his turn bet and folded on a Jd turn

HE bet $275 and when I folded he flipped over 69 LOL. I will never know the river card but I wish I just raised flop to $300 and called a shove - and we could of done business - ran it multiple times

I would of happily reloaded but still - I was up at the time and didn't want to have to grind my money back incase the game was going to break soon - but I shouldn't think like that.
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Old 12-30-2015, 07:33 PM   #18
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
if we flat and the turn bricks, we are most likely going to get outplayed.
We're in position, so we should be doing the outplaying.
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Old 12-30-2015, 07:35 PM   #19
Pipedreamer101
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
ya i do wish I 3bet pre

I ended up calling his turn bet and folded on a Jd turn

HE bet $275 and when I folded he flipped over 69 LOL. I will never know the river card but I wish I just raised flop to $300 and called a shove - and we could of done business - ran it multiple times

I would of happily reloaded but still - I was up at the time and didn't want to have to grind my money back incase the game was going to break soon - but I shouldn't think like that.

In future don't be results oriented. If your up 1 buy in + and if loosing that profit will have a greater effect on you vs doubling it, then its probably best you get up and leave.
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:11 PM   #20
Hardball47
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
In future don't be results oriented. If your up 1 buy in + and if loosing that profit will have a greater effect on you vs doubling it, then its probably best you get up and leave.
Being results oriented is actually helpful. We are, after all, playing for results: the result of cashing out more money than we cash in with.

If you're playing near the end of a 12-hour session and you're at risk of dumping your entire stack at the last hand of the night you're playing, you're better off thinking pragmatically and folding. Lest you want to literally undo the last 12 hours of grinding.
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:11 PM   #21
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Flop is easiest 3bet of all time. Sometimes, he calls and turn goes c/c if you whiff.
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:27 PM   #22
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Hand is played fine. Doing everything else than calling flop raise is absolutely atrocious especially given stacksizes and a huuuuge mistake...
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:28 PM   #23
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UCDLaCrosse View Post
Flop is easiest 3bet of all time.
No
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Old 12-30-2015, 10:43 PM   #24
djevans
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimStone View Post
Hand is played fine. Doing everything else than calling flop raise is absolutely atrocious especially given stacksizes and a huuuuge mistake...
i think it was played fine if I don't 3bet pre - but if i 3bet pre I think it might change the hand a bit
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:15 AM   #25
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Re: AcKc 200bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
Being results oriented is actually helpful. We are, after all, playing for results: the result of cashing out more money than we cash in with.

If you're playing near the end of a 12-hour session and you're at risk of dumping your entire stack at the last hand of the night you're playing, you're better off thinking pragmatically and folding. Lest you want to literally undo the last 12 hours of grinding.
Cashing out with more than what we bought in for is not the goal. I could do this nearly every time if I wanted. The goal is to maximize EV (and have fun, of course!)

If you're playing scared money and overfolding and playing too passively because you're afraid of losing your winnings, then that's obviously bad. This is not a good mindset for poker and the pragmatic thing would be to not play at all instead of trying to squeeze a few more hands in.

I don't think I've seen this kind of results oriented thinking before. OP wishes he had gotten it in behind so he could have seen what would have happened?

If your read was right in the OP about villain and you don't have FE against his value range, then 3-betting flop would be pretty bad. Flatting seems like the clear play if you think he's c-betting his middling strength hands.
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