What do you do when you raise utg with queens and get called by both blinds, who are straight forward players, and there's an ace on the flop?

I was in a raised hand in position against two loose passive straight forward players who I felt wouldn't try and bluff me off a hand if I tried to check it down... I felt that they might check their pair of aces on the flop to trap me but then "tell me I'm beat' by betting out on the turn or river if I checked behind. I felt I wouldn't be called by much that I beat if I bet on the flop but my question is...

Should I still bet my queens on the flop for protection against a King coming on the turn or a backdoor flush/straight by the river?

Here's what happened?


Hero utg raises to $25, 5BB in $2/5 game. Stack $600. Image is pretty nitty.

Both blinds call. V1 in the SB, is loose passive with $250 stack. V2 the BB, is loose passive with $500 stack. Both players are straight forward and seem to check/call with weak holdings and bet with strong value hands.

Pot $75. Flop is A78 rainbow. Both blinds check, hero checks.

Turn K spades. Now there are two spades. Everyone checks.

Turn Q spades. SB bets $40. BB calls. Hero calls with three queens. BB shows straight J10.

I would say that most of the time you should Cbet almost any A high flop IP. It will be very tough for someone to flat you OOP without an ace, since there are so many strong aces in your range that it will be hard to bluff you off of.

Against a strong player, you might even have to fire two barrels, although on the hand you mention I would keep my bet sizing on the low end because it's a fairly dry board. Bet about 1/3 to 1/2 pot on both flop and river.

I think it was played fine.

You can bet the flop for $30-40 to get value from 56, 67, 7x, 8x, 99, 9T, JT type hands, especially the combos with BDFD's.

As played I would have bet the turn for $50.

Cbetting this board should be your standard move IMO.

As played pretty standard call on river.

Even when the King comes on the turn? Now I'm beat by a pair of kings and Aces. The only hands I can get value from is flush and straight draws.... And a few pairs I guess

Yea normally I would C-bet and probably check it down if called against most opponents.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

When both players check the turn they have very few Aces or Kings in their range.

Conversely, if you check the flop, players will discount the ace and call two streets with worse. Like if a middle pair card such as a J or T comes on the turn there are tons of worse hands now calling and few that improved past your pair. Other than that, you hand is sort of marginal and there is mostly 1 street to get value from, each street has it's own merits.

The K on the turn is just bad luck and should freeze any action you were planning on the turn, so you played it fine. You don't need to protect your hand, just try to get it to showdown for as cheaply as possible against a strong range and for as much as possible against a weaker range. Opponents will be on the stronger side once they call a bet.

Raise river

Bet flop. Give them a chance to fold a weak A or to fold a rogue holding. You have position and raised pre flop.
If you get called on the flop, it's unlikely V will bet the turn. so you can check behind if you want. river: as played: you have a set but since there was no action on the flop or turn, any two cards could have got there. I don't put V on JT, but runner runner spades got there and V woke up and bet, after checking flop and turn. Not saying I fold, but definitely don't love the spot.

A small C bet on the flop solves a lot of these problems. Always checking behind with an underpair in a raised pot when an Ace flops will be exploitable.

I don't know how you just call river. Raise fold.

Betting this flop with QQ (and KK) is just lolbad. Too much results-orientedness ITT.

Are you suggesting that H should always check KK and QQ when an Ace flops, in a pot where H raised pre flop and the only two callers were the blinds?

Betting this flop is not results oriented. C-betting makes a lot of sense here, regardless of results.

Exactly. Hero opening UTG should shift his range to more Ax hands which should compel hero to cbet a flop like this. It isn't about our specific hand now, it's about our range compared to the SB and BB calling range. Not to mention taking it down on the flop is just fine with us. Better we bet and have to shut down because we suspect villain has an ace than check and be essentially giving up on the hand.

Yea obviously Ax is within our range as I would have easily raised utg with AK and AQ and would be expected to bet top pair in position. But what about if you put both of the blinds on calling the pre flop raise with Ax and Axs? And what if the blinds arent concerned with the idea of a "range" and are just playing their "own" hand. I think that's something to consider. There's an assumption that all opponents are putting players on ranges and are aware of other's tendencies. But many bad players at the lower stakes live games are just playing their own cards...

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

You're making the point of exactly why you should be betting the flop. A78 rainbow is a pretty damn dry board, besides the obvious ace. When they both check to you it's the green light to bet and take down the pot. Most of the time they've missed and you have position and initiative. It's a winning formula. Is your plan to check it down or hope to hit a set? After the K on the turn and no one bets again, do you really think someone has an ace?

My point is, I think you have it backwards. It is precisely because these villains are probably level 1 thinkers that we should bet this flop. It's going to be an +EV move in the long run compared to checking it down IMO.

Superglue "I think it was played fine" lol really bro? I hope that is sarcasm.

OP, first of all you act like "5BB in a $2/5 game" is acceptable in your position here when it's not. Secondly, if your image is pretty nitty then you solidify it with your line here. You got scared. Two things you should've done differently.

You should of bet more pre flop, at least $35, $40. 5bb doesn't mean anything in 2/5, the games are just a higher stakes variation of 1/2. By that, I mean that the games are just as nitty as 1/2 but for idiots with more money. Don't slow play big Hands thinking you're going to trap. This is one of the most valuable lessons I've learned. Bet your hand and if they don't call, so be it. Because **** like this happens - you let them get there.

Secondly, you called $40 on the river and lost it when you should have bet on the flop, but you were scared. No one had an ace, right? You would've known that with a feeler bet on the flop. Say you bet 35-40 pre and had one caller, you should have bet 50 on the flop and took it down right there. If they call, check the turn, if they raise then fold.

I disagree with your whole line

Yes because you're rarely getting worse to call but may induce stabs with worse OTT/OTR if checked through, without much risk of suckouts. Betting this flop serves no purpose.

What do you do when V c/c flop, turn goes c/c, and V leads river? You have no clue and probably fold. Why not put that same flop bet in OTT when checked to OR call a bet OTT/fold river? Much superior line IMO.

So basically, you're only betting for information and to "shut down" if called?

We're obviously not giving up when we check back the flop. We're inducing lighter calls OTT/OTR doing so. We're rarely getting bluffed off our hand on such a board.

I kind of like the check with qq on the flop here, we are in position, and by betting this flop really we are turning qq into a bluff that reps the ace. I definitely don't want to be betting three streets here, the check allows us to pot control here with what is now a marginal but probably best hand.
I hate the king on the turn and we sort of have to check behind again which sucks. Any other card in the deck and I bet the turn about 50% pot for value.
River I'm pretty sure we have to raise, our hand is so massively under repped here, no way villan can give us a set here so even a king will look pretty massive here, as what hand that beats a bare king gets to the river played this way, pretty exclusively qq. When villan jams on you after that we have a real tough decision to make

I advocated betting because more often than not our two villains have missed and we can take it down without contest. Betting does give us more information than checking but that isn't the sole reason. We're also not always beat when we bet and get called, we can get value from stubborn higher PPs like 99-TT and open ended draws like T9 or 56. These hands could bet out on the turn after it checks thru and we would be incorrectly folding the best hand.

I don't agree with your checking assessment. You're checking to induce lighter calls of...what? The board runout on the turn is A78K. The only value we get is from flush draws IMO which is board runout dependent. In a vacuum, when you have KK or QQ and it comes A78r you're much better off betting on flop then checking and hoping someone hits something to continue. The ace on the flop makes this situation problematic with checking back to induce IMO.

I don't disagree that a check could get value from hands that may have folded on the flop, but I don't believe that value will overcome hero simply betting flop and taking the pot right there.

Neb with the best advice of the thread:

When it's checked through to us on the flop we are going on two assumptions:
We likely have the best hand
Many hands in our opponents range have decent equity vs our holding (Kx, any pp, 109, J10, 56, 7x, 8x etc).

Now, generally our opponents will only realize their equity when we check the flop. We don't want them to do this! This then, becomes a math problem. At the table, we should be able to ballpark our equity in the hand vs the amount of time a cbet gets through.

We also look terrible when the hand plays out like this. The worst thing that could happen is that we look passive, let our opponent get there, while showing the rest of the table we don't bet our premium pocket pairs in position on A high boards. This hand is just an illustration on the importance of position. If you had been called by the CO and BTN, this would be a genuinely tough hand to play. You were called by the weak passive blinds, were weak passive yourself and had a -$100 swing due to poor positional play.

Default line in this situation is to get 1 or 2 streets of value. Checking the flop with QQ gives us enough information to consider betting the turn if villans appear weak.

The king turn is a pretty bad card and we should just give up and only considerd a small river bet, tiny.

I don't think we're giving up on the hand by checking the flop. If both villains are loose passive then I'd expect them to play straight-forward and better define their hand strength on the turn. If a blank falls and it checks to us then it's an easy value bet for around half pot.

I don't hate betting flop, but if we bet flop and are called we probably have to check back the turn against this type of opponent.

After that, if he bets river I don't like it. Remember it's a loose passive opponent.

On the other hand, lets say a blank hits the turn (as it very often will) and it checks to us again, I'd expect villains to call us a little lighter seeing as we checked the flop and we're more likely to avoid a difficult river decision after not showing weakness on the turn.

There are much, much fewer "blank" turns than you think there are fwiw.

Your range is weighted towards Aces and kings. Bet the flop for $35 - $40