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Old 10-03-2018, 10:20 PM   #1
Phraust
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AA vs omc. Too passive?

Hero 400$ 1/3 live utg with AsAc. Raise to 15$. Sb calls. Sb is a typical omc with eff stack 250$~

Flop (33$) 2s7d4c. Sb checks hero bets 15$, sb calls.

Turn (63$) 4d. Sb checks, hero bets 20$, sb calls.

River (103$) 8c. Sb checks, hero?

The betting was small but this guy is the definition of omc and I was looking to get some value from worse hands but not put myself in a tight spot if I get x/r. I'm just not sure he would call pre with a hand that hits this board and call me with other than a set or turned trips. But I feel like he may lead the turn or river if he had that. Idk because I've bet every street he may be trapping. He could have an overpair like 99-JJ or 7x. I feel as if most omc wont call with 7x here unless its A7 but he wouldnt call me pre with that.

River:
Spoiler:
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:22 PM   #2
Minatorr
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

Grunch.

3-barrel for value, bet bigger ott. Big otr
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:58 PM   #3
wj94
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

$30 flop $75 turn shove river. OMC always has a pocket pair here.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:09 PM   #4
DrChesspain
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

Bet more for value.

And why be afraid of being checkraised? When it comes from an OMC, it's his way of telling you that you are beat and can fold.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:39 AM   #5
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

Didn't view river spoiler. I understand your reasoning for sizing down because you think it's going to be very hard to get value from an OMC. I've been guilty of doing the same too, but the other replies are correct when they say to size up. From a true OMC you're only going to get raised by boats, and there's tons of smaller OPs he'll have that will have him willing to call down 3 streets. Occasionally one will get frisky and raise river with KK-JJ, but if your read is correct it should be rare and you can comfortably go for fat value and fold to a raise.

So many OMCs have a preflop 3! range of AA specifically, and some have no 3! range at all. Because of this, I like your sizing if you're holding a smaller OP yourself, but with AA you have to size up and go for max value.

Last edited by branch0095; 10-04-2018 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:16 AM   #6
gobbledygeek
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

I usually limp/reraise at my tables, but we somehow managed to get this HU in position so great result if expected.

SPR is 8ish. I'd probably plan on doing 3 smallish bet/folds; we don't want bigger ones as this could unwittingly get us committed by the river. I like going no more than $15 on this dry flop (I might even go just $12 which helps keep the pot under control even more).

I like our turn bet, and I'm cool with the smallish sizing (I'd probably go no more than $25).

Against OMCs, we don't fear a check/raise at all because we can instantly muck as they are never check/raising worse. If we bet like $40ish on the river and fold to a check/raise I think we've played the hand fine.

ETA: Nice hand, imo. Yes, in this particular case we're upset at ourselves because we lost some value, but against his overall range (which include very weak hands thru monsters) we likely did perfectly ok.

ETA#2: I'm not so sure I love sizing up each street to move towards getting stacks in play against a guy who looks to be tarping (i.e. could play a set / boat likely the same way). I think we also risk getting folds from the smaller part of his overpair range (although admittedly this depends on what our image is too).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 10-04-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:38 AM   #7
HawkesDave
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

Hand feels terribly MUBSY. Worry about sets when you get raised. Thatís a great board to make money on with AA. Criminal how passively it was played. You basically made the minimum.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:56 AM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

If the OMC is capable of folding the weakish end of his pairs, then underbetting is fine.

The worst hand I played two sessions ago I paid off 3 postflop streets with TPTK AQs that I had limped in EP thanks to bet sizes of ~2/3, ~1/3 and ~1/4. Villain's value bet sizing with his flopped two pair was fairly optimal against me (he would have lost me on pretty much any street for much more).

Gnotnearlyasbadaspeoplearemakingitouttobe,imoG
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:15 PM   #9
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If the OMC is capable of folding the weakish end of his pairs, then underbetting is fine.

The worst hand I played two sessions ago I paid off 3 postflop streets with TPTK AQs that I had limped in EP thanks to bet sizes of ~2/3, ~1/3 and ~1/4. Villain's value bet sizing with his flopped two pair was fairly optimal against me (he would have lost me on pretty much any street for much more).

Gnotnearlyasbadaspeoplearemakingitouttobe,imoG
Your example is not nearly detailed enough for it to even be relevant vs this HH. Even the small details you provided show that itís a completely different scenario with OP opening the action UTG and the SB flatting.
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:55 PM   #10
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

When an OMC calls us on the flop and we have AA in this spot we want to be going HUGE for 3 streets.

These are the spots you make money in live poker against droolers. This guy is literally never folding an overpair to you and we need to be getting max value from this guy the 1 time out of 3 sessions we have the OMC coolered like this.
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Old 10-04-2018, 02:03 PM   #11
wait
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

Not passive cause you bet 3 streets. Just terrible sizing leaks.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:32 PM   #12
Phraust
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If the OMC is capable of folding the weakish end of his pairs, then underbetting is fine.

The worst hand I played two sessions ago I paid off 3 postflop streets with TPTK AQs that I had limped in EP thanks to bet sizes of ~2/3, ~1/3 and ~1/4. Villain's value bet sizing with his flopped two pair was fairly optimal against me (he would have lost me on pretty much any street for much more).

Gnotnearlyasbadaspeoplearemakingitouttobe,imoG
This is how I seen it, try to get as much value as I can which is hard to get from OMC (if I have the best hand that is). He might call 88-JJ here on the flop if I'm betting huge into him but for an OMC I feel he would fold the lower overpairs if faced with too much aggression. Look at how he played KK, check/call every street even the river with nothing above a 10 on the board. In this situation yes we probably could have stacked him, but if he's that passive with KK how would he play smaller overpairs?

I don't see him calling any hand with a 7 here for a 5x open pre. We are most likely against a set/overpair but the only overpairs he will probably stack off with are maybe JJ+ but probably QQ+ imo.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:45 PM   #13
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by Phraust View Post
This is how I seen it, try to get as much value as I can which is hard to get from OMC (if I have the best hand that is). He might call 88-JJ here on the flop if I'm betting huge into him but for an OMC I feel he would fold the lower overpairs if faced with too much aggression. Look at how he played KK, check/call every street even the river with nothing above a 10 on the board. In this situation yes we probably could have stacked him, but if he's that passive with KK how would he play smaller overpairs?

I don't see him calling any hand with a 7 here for a 5x open pre. We are most likely against a set/overpair but the only overpairs he will probably stack off with are maybe JJ+ but probably QQ+ imo.

Your minset is completely skewed here IMO. Just because he flat an overpair here PF doesn't mean he's going to fold to 3 barrels of reasonably sized bets. In his mind, this is exactly why he just called PF so that he can trap this guy who just keeps betting into him.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:55 PM   #14
Phraust
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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In his mind, this is exactly why he just called PF so that he can trap this guy who just keeps betting into him.
If he only flat called PF to trap me then why is he just check calling every street including the river? If he's thinking "I'm trapping this guy no way he thinks I have KK" why wouldn't he attempt a single raise? Because he must of put me on AA or a set so I don't think we are getting anymore out of the guy most of the time except maybe this one time since he had a very strangely played KK. There are no other hands he should be afraid of here and he wasn't even willing to put in more chips when given the opportunity to raise.

Even though 99 is an overpair here I could see omc folding it to huge aggression on this board. We have to think about what he can have and how much he's willing to call. I don't see him stacking off here with 99 but we can get some value out of it.

Last edited by Phraust; 10-04-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:58 PM   #15
gobbledygeek
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by bigdaddycope View Post
Your minset is completely skewed here IMO. Just because he flat an overpair here PF doesn't mean he's going to fold to 3 barrels of reasonably sized bets. In his mind, this is exactly why he just called PF so that he can trap this guy who just keeps betting into him.
He's playing every other overpair the exact same way to any sizing?

He's never playing a better hand this way?

Overall, I think we're being incredibly results oriented. In the end the guy just happened to have the the nut high worse hand (and yes, we could have made more off of that hand *if* we knew that was what he had); but that's not the only hand hand he has. In fact, given that there wasn't a 3bet preflop, it's actually less likely he has that hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:35 PM   #16
HawkesDave
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

It has nothing to do with being results oriented.

You hold AA, when do you expect to get paid for it? On a 333 board? Set over set?

4-card nut flush you aren’t making much. Set on an A-high board you aren’t making much.

You have a low-paired, non-flush board and you’re worried about them only calling with better? You must not like money.

It’s great that he’s a passive player here. If he wakes up with a raise you can snap fold

Last edited by HawkesDave; 10-04-2018 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:49 PM   #17
gobbledygeek
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

To look at it from a different point of view...

You're sitting as an indifferent observer at the table and you've just seen OP raise preflop from UTG and barrel 3 postflop streets for stacks with his overpair against an OMC.

What's your overall take?

He's an awesome player that you should probably not tangle with?

Or perhaps you should consider adding on some chips to your stack and attempting to get into a hand as soon as possible with him while he still has chips on the table?

GI'mthelatter,butthat'smeIguessG
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:52 PM   #18
HawkesDave
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
To look at it from a different point of view...

You're sitting as an indifferent observer at the table and you've just seen OP raise preflop from UTG and barrel 3 postflop streets for stacks with his overpair against an OMC.

What's your overall take?

He's an awesome player that you should probably not tangle with?

Or perhaps you should consider adding on some chips to your stack and attempting to get into a hand as soon as possible with him while he still has chips on the table?

GI'mthelatter,butthat'smeIguessG
Was there two 4s and no flushes when he bet 3 big streets with AA? Because that’s a lot different than if the board was JTT94. Nobody is overvaluing AA when they go for value on this board. You’re trying to take this somewhere that doesn’t apply.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:00 PM   #19
Phraust
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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You have a low-paired, non-flush board and youíre worried about them only calling with better? You must not like money.
Not worried about him only calling with better or I would be clearly checking back. Worried about how much I can bet to get him to call with worse. Like you said it's a dry board. I like money so I want to keep him around and extract as much as possible. If he played KK this way how would he play smaller overpairs? He was hesitant about getting money in with KK by not raising given 4 opportunities so what makes you think we can extract the same amount or more from 99?


Yes he had KK here so we probably could have extracted more, but if he had a weak overpair we probably cant extract the same amount as if he had KK. If I knew what he had I'd obviously go bigger.. but that is results oriented.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:05 PM   #20
HawkesDave
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Not worried about him only calling with better or I would be clearly checking back. Worried about how much I can bet to get him to call with worse. Like you said it's a dry board. I like money so I want to keep him around and extract as much as possible. If he played KK this way how would he play smaller overpairs? He was hesitant about getting money in with KK by not raising given 4 opportunities so what makes you think we can extract the same amount or more from 99?


Yes he had KK here so we probably could have extracted more, but if he had a weak overpair we probably cant extract the same amount as if he had KK. If I knew what he had I'd obviously go bigger.. but that is results oriented.
If youíre worried that youíre going to scare people away from top pair and overpairs then youíre not raising/bluffing enough overall. Thatís a different issue entirely.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:09 PM   #21
Phraust
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
If youíre worried that youíre going to scare people away from top pair and overpairs then youíre not raising/bluffing enough overall. Thatís a different issue entirely.
You have to consider the player though. Just because you can get ridiculous value from somebody with TPTK that doesnt mean you can get the same amount from a different player with the same hand.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:13 PM   #22
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

With a read of simply "OMC", I am thinking of how to get all his money in as soon as this flop hits. 25 on flop, 60 on turn, leaving 150 into 200 on the river. Remember to fold if he raises cause that is a set approximately always. So much over pair in OMCs range here and they are pretty inelastic to sizing in this case.

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Old 10-04-2018, 06:13 PM   #23
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

I really doubt he is folding overpairs to larger sizings on these undercard boards. Flop sizing is ok but turn needs to be bigger I like 40-50 so you have a reasonable river jam.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:13 PM   #24
HawkesDave
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by Phraust View Post
You have to consider the player though. Just because you can get ridiculous value from somebody with TPTK that doesnt mean you can get the same amount from a different player with the same hand.
The OMCs I play with love to call their good hands against bluffy younger, aggressive guys. They’ll call bigs bets, too.

Your bet sizing may have worked best for your image. I’d say to work on your image to make more money.

Your opponent has more top pair and overpairs in his range than he does 55-66.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:14 PM   #25
gobbledygeek
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Re: AA vs omc. Too passive?

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Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
If youíre worried that youíre going to scare people away from top pair and overpairs then youíre not raising/bluffing enough overall. Thatís a different issue entirely.
This is a very common counter-argument (I hear it all the time).

But to raise UTG with a wide range at a 10 handed table (which, if anything like mine, is often going very multiway which also reduces the profitable bluffing spots we can get ourselves into) just gets us into way more bloated pots OOP with junky hands; not a great overall strategy, imo. The money we lose overall in these spots just doesn't make up for the extra max value we can perhaps then eke out in the rare spot we just got ourselves into in this particular hand.

Gimo,althoughalotdisagreeG
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