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Old 09-18-2014, 08:53 PM   #1
battagd1
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AA - oops I did it again

Playing at a 1/2 game. Sat down with $250. Table of 8 mixed with 4 maniacs, 3 nits and me.

Only played 20 min, up $250 thanks to my quads 9s getting paid off.

Villan is Crazy manic guy to my right, raises most hands preflop. I have AA, there are 5 callers, I make it 12 and get 2 callers (including villan).

Flop 10h4h4c. Checked to me and I bet $30. Villan is only one calling.
Turn is 5d, villan check, I bet $60. He pauses for a moment and raises to $140.

In my mind he might have hit trips 5s, have a 10 or could be on a complete bluff.

I'm paused thinking what he may have and notice that his hand is shaking and he's acting nervous. After about a minute I decide he's bluffing and go allin.

He snap calls with 34...and laughs cause he's got me and even told me that his hand shake was all an act. I'm clearly the idiot

Where did I go wrong?

Last edited by battagd1; 09-18-2014 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:23 PM   #2
ThaNEWPr0fess0r
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Your post is missing some info... like positions pre-flop, Villains stack size, and pot size on each street.

It also contains too much info in the form of the results of the hand. Leave the results out if you want the best advice.

On to the hand...

you say 5 callers... 5 players limped? Or 3 players and the blinds are in?

Raise more pre-flop. Probably like $18-25. $12 is way too small.

Flop bet is fine. Turn bet is also fine. When you get c/r OTT, it's very strong. I would need a solid read not to fold the turn. You really need to give us more info on this Villain for us to give you any more advice about whether or not to continue in this spot. A previous hand where is made a big raise with a flush draw or over valued top pair would be helpful. And note that a hand where he called down with top pair is totally different than c/r the turn with it. The truth is that he probably has many 4x hands in his range. Against most players, I would be folding the turn.

As for the hand shaking, that is usually a sign of strength not a bluff. Villain likely lied about doing it on purpose.
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:25 PM   #3
19ki
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Shaking usually means strength
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:43 PM   #4
Run2Vegas
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

calling the flop indicates that villain either has some pair (T or pocket pair), trips or FD. also note that if he's wants to bluff/semi-bluff he's more likely to c/r here as opposed to float then c/r turn

when he check raises the turn you can eliminate some hands from his range, you are repping at least TPGK so he's unlikely to have pair hands here, so the hand that makes the most sense is trips.

not sure if he's a donk maniac or one that still picks spots, but you are repping quite strong in this hand its less likely for him to try bluff you
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:13 AM   #5
QuadJ
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

The only big mistake I see here is preflop. If there are 5 limpers then $12 isn't enough. At a normal 1/2 table I would be going $15-$20. At the sort of table you describe, I'm probably going higher but stack sizes really begin to matter. After that, the flop bet is good. On the turn you need to think about villains remaining stack and if he will go bust with a worse hand but for the most part I'm betting also. Calling the shove is reading villain and judging his range, but against a real maniac I probably call here.

His acting is just a matter of reading it. Villains faking it at 1/2 are rare but they do exist. When I see somebody who obviously has played a lot of poker suddenly develop a tic I get suspicious. Still, at 1/2 a lot of villains change their behavior when they are all in, so it can be hard to tell if they are good.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:09 AM   #6
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by battagd1 View Post
Playing at a 1/2 game. Sat down with $250. Table of 8 mixed with 4 maniacs, 3 nits and me.

Only played 20 min, up $250 thanks to my quads 9s getting paid off.

Villan is Crazy manic guy to my right, raises most hands preflop. I have AA, there are 5 callers, I make it 12 and get 2 callers (including villan).

Flop 10h4h4c. Checked to me and I bet $30. Villan is only one calling.
Turn is 5d, villan check, I bet $60. He pauses for a moment and raises to $140.

In my mind he might have hit trips 5s, have a 10 or could be on a complete bluff.

I'm paused thinking what he may have and notice that his hand is shaking and he's acting nervous. After about a minute I decide he's bluffing and go allin.

He snap calls with 34...and laughs cause he's got me and even told me that his hand shake was all an act. I'm clearly the idiot

Where did I go wrong?
think about this in particular.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:16 AM   #7
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Your mistake was your preflop raise. $12 is the normal preflp beT size in 1/2 without any limpers. After seeing 5 players limp you need raise it up to anywhere from $18 to $25.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:27 AM   #8
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Agree, Hands shaking = strong. I've been playing live for years and feel like this one read in particular, especially at low limits and with recreational players seems to always hold up.

Agree, Def raise more PF.

Also agree that you would need to have a very good read on this player to continue with the hand. Against complete unknown its a fold. Against maniac who consistently uses CR play with big draws then its a different story. Also the size of his CR IMO looks like pure value especially if he is not a good player.
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:15 PM   #9
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

:grunch:

Raise preflop is too small. $15 min, probably $17 with all the limpers. Also sets up better sizing if anyone gets frisky and 3-bets you.

When a crazy maniac limps pre, then check/flats a paired board ... he likely has trips. These guys like to play all kinds of trash hands. Then they tend to bet into weakness with a wide range. The rare hands that they limp pre are going to be small connecting cards like the kind that hit this board. If he missed completely on the flop he might fold to your c-bet, OK. But the check/call screams "TRAP!, but maybedrawing".

On the turn he has a 4 every time. In the very rare spots where he *doesn't* have a 4, raising accomplishes nothing since it folds out everything you beat and prevents him from bluffing the river.

I'm not opposed to betting the turn after his check. Another flat call might be a heart draw or a small pair (although crazy guy will usually raise a pair preflop).
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Old 09-19-2014, 01:42 PM   #10
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

PF too small ... How you only got 2 callers is unusual as well IMO. With a maniac at the table you want to increase your bets anyway since you are more likely to get a call while being way ahead of his full range.

Flop is fine ... decent c-bet.

Turn shove is not good. Maniacs love to control the betting and you have now taken this away from him. You know where you stand here pretty much .. you are behind 4x and need to fade a flush. That's it for the most part, so what's the all-in for? Maniacs still generally have decent poker sense (if not more than others and just ignore it)!! Don't take the fun out of the game for him and let him bluff the River into you.

More PF, may not have changed the hand though.
Flop is fine.
Flat the Turn raise and probably call any River bet? GL
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Old 09-19-2014, 02:45 PM   #11
Cheers4Booze
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Not to belabor the point, but PFR has got to be bigger. Pick the least amount that you are certain would fold out the entire field, then go slightly lower. I would say $30 probably takes it down PF, so make it $25. Effective stacks would be helpful.

V is rarely if ever doing this with a T. IMO, its a 4 or air.

OTT, you made a read and acted upon it, well done. I think your execution was lacking, however. If V is bluffing, going AI only gets us called when we are beat.
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Old 09-19-2014, 02:56 PM   #12
battagd1
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

So if I fold the turn do I show my AA to gain some respect or does that give opponents the idea they can get me to fold with a xraise?
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Old 09-19-2014, 02:58 PM   #13
Angrist
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Eh, I think the "hand shaking, looks nervous" live read is a load of crap from an aggro villain. He's never nervous putting his money into the pot, that's not how maniacs think. It's an act. There's more to a live read than a simple action like that. You need to have some correlation with behavior, which you don't have.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:00 PM   #14
Angrist
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by battagd1 View Post
So if I fold the turn do I show my AA to gain some respect or does that give opponents the idea they can get me to fold with a xraise?
Nope. Don't show.

They'll usually ask you what you had instead, especially if you take some time before folding. This'll get you some info on how *they* think, and if you really wanted to try to manipulate them you could tell them whatever you want.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:17 PM   #15
Willikizz
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

The pre-flop raise is the first mistake because with five limpers you need to reduce the field. This time you got two callers but another time if your next player calls it could lead to everyone calling. If individuals are calling with 3-4 your likely to get customers for more. After you raised more when the flop comes the continuation bets become larger and the game becomes easier to read and it gets easier to get stacks in (even though you'd still have lost this time).

What I think Sauhund is getting at is if you decide he's bluffing why are you going all in. Because if he is bluffing he's not calling. Also unless a guy is bluffing a lot you should try and not assume he is bluffing. People don't bluff as often as you think they generally have or had something when in the pot. When calling the flop it is often because they have a hand to call with. It might be Ace high they think is good, weaker two pair often the ten the 4, flush draw etc. They might float if they think your weak but when you bet the turn they need to have an idea of what hands your capable of folding so if they put you on a pair 10+ which will be a consideration they would rarely be bluffing.

Ignore the shaking till you know what it means. Then decide what he calls pre which could be ATC by the look of it then what will call flop then check raise the turn. Chances are he always beats the ten here but does he always beat you??
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Old 09-20-2014, 08:59 AM   #16
rungood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
Nope. Don't show.

They'll usually ask you what you had instead, especially if you take some time before folding. This'll get you some info on how *they* think, and if you really wanted to try to manipulate them you could tell them whatever you want.
I think it's more important to try and induce villain to show his hand. So you get more info. If he is a maniac and was bluffing there is a good shot he is going to show you anyway. He lives for just that moment. However in the scenario where he has the best hand you can induce by saying "nice bluff, I'm sure you had nothing!" he may show just in order to prove you wrong.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:32 AM   #17
WittyName26
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Raise bigger pre 20-25 seems appropriate. Making it 12 after so many limpers just gives the limpers the correct implied odds to call and see pre, and we do not want a multiway pot post flop w/ the AA here imo.
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:58 PM   #18
ThaNEWPr0fess0r
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Re: AA - oops I did it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by battagd1 View Post
So if I fold the turn do I show my AA to gain some respect or does that give opponents the idea they can get me to fold with a xraise?
Uh... never show a big fold. If you get asked, don't tell them anything or lie. Showing a big fold is one of the worst things you can do.
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