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Old 03-26-2017, 05:56 PM   #1
Acquittal
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AA facing heat on the flop

2/3 NL.

I've been at the table for about 10 minutes.

V1 (covers): Middle-aged white guy. Nothing much of note in the few minutes that I've been at the table. Although it's 9:30 a.m. and he's drinking a beer.

v2 ($175): Middle-aged Asian guy. No real reads.

Hero ($275): Sexy beyond belief, yet with a delightful personality. I hadn't played many hands since I sat down. 40-year-old in t-shirt and jeans.

OTTH

4 limps to hero on the BB with AA. Hero makes it $20. V2 limp/calls in MP and V1 limp/calls from the cutoff. All others fold.

Flop (~$60): J24
Hero checks, V2 bets $20, V1 makes it $100.

Hero?
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:05 PM   #2
MikeStarr
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

Raise more preflop. On the flop there's only 2 reasons to check

1) To check raise some percentage of the time depending on the action
2) To check/fold some percentage of the time depending on the action.

If I checked this flop, I would fold now.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:06 PM   #3
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

.....informs the dealer he would like to wager all of his playing tokens.....

No way we can fold here, and if we call it's going to be a dumb spot on the turn, it's pretty tough to lay down aces when we are less than 100bb, on a drawy flop, no two pairs to speak of.... It's has to go in the middle
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:16 PM   #4
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

You have to fold with no reads. You block the nut flush draw, but it would be a different story if you didn't. Even players who don't bluff raise are going to do it with A5/3cc here. There are no real two pair combos so the dude straight up has a set. One of the few times where you can feel comfortable saying that.

It's pretty magical that you have this info on his hand without putting more money in, but I can't figure out why you didn't cbet.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:20 PM   #5
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

Grunch: id really like to see a cbet here OTF doesn't have to be big as you hold the Ac size around $30-$35.

AP the Ac is now actually an extremely bad card to hold, it blocks a very large portion of either Vs bluff range I think if you checked and action goes like this you're up against 22/44 playing scared and if you did check you need to fold this if you didn't hold the Ac blocker I'd put the money in the middle

AP sigh fold
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:27 PM   #6
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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You have to fold with no reads. You block the nut flush draw, but it would be a different story if you didn't. Even players who don't bluff raise are going to do it with A5/3cc here. There are no real two pair combos so the dude straight up has a set. One of the few times where you can feel comfortable saying that.

It's pretty magical that you have this info on his hand without putting more money in, but I can't figure out why you didn't cbet.
Its not magical. This is exactly why you should check this flop sometimes. If there was just a bet instead of a bet and a raise, I would be happy to check raise.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:40 PM   #7
sai1b0ats
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

Very strange not to lead here. There is no reason to protect your checking range here against unknowns. Anyway, don't fold. AP, jam, x/c is mega strong anyway, so might as well put the chips in the middle.
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Old 03-26-2017, 07:31 PM   #8
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
Very strange not to lead here. There is no reason to protect your checking range here against unknowns. Anyway, don't fold. AP, jam, x/c is mega strong anyway, so might as well put the chips in the middle.
My thoughts on checking the flop were as follows. Villains don't have a lot of 2s and 4s, and they're probably betting their jacks for me. Because I have the A, they also don't have a lot of draws that I need to protect against.

It's hard to be called by less and I don't mind letting villains catch up. I didn't see betting accomplishing much, since there aren't a lot of second-best hands that can call. And it's live poker, so I'm not worried about balancing my cbet range.

But I see a lot of people are saying that I should cbet the flop. I'm open to that. What's the best reason to cbet here?
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:00 PM   #9
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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My thoughts on checking the flop were as follows. Villains don't have a lot of 2s and 4s, and they're probably betting their jacks for me. Because I have the A, they also don't have a lot of draws that I need to protect against.

It's hard to be called by less and I don't mind letting villains catch up. I didn't see betting accomplishing much, since there aren't a lot of second-best hands that can call. And it's live poker, so I'm not worried about balancing my cbet range.

But I see a lot of people are saying that I should cbet the flop. I'm open to that. What's the best reason to cbet here?
It's 1/3 there are tons of mongoloid 2 pair hands that you do need to protect against. You also want to start getting value and building a pot so you can setup an easy river shove from pocket pairs/jacks. When you have a hand in 1/3 against unknowns bet it and build a pot.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:21 PM   #10
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

Betting the flop is almost always better. I was just giving reasons for checking sometimes and what my response would be if I did check.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:47 PM   #11
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

C-bet for sure.

I have a theory that read less and with no villain history, that if I folded an overpair every time to a raise of my c-bet in 1/2 or 1/3 that I'd be ahead. So many people at this level just call their draws, rather than raise.

Part of this theory is based on experience when I call or reraise, I so rarely see a draw; I nearly always end up seeing 2p or better. If it is a hand I'm beating it tends to be another over pair. Obviously gross generalization, and clearly exploitable, and it's not to say I won't call/reraise with reads, or the 20 something in a hoodie, but just bitter experience.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:06 PM   #12
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
C-bet for sure.

I have a theory that read less and with no villain history, that if I folded an overpair every time to a raise of my c-bet in 1/2 or 1/3 that I'd be ahead. So many people at this level just call their draws, rather than raise.

Part of this theory is based on experience when I call or reraise, I so rarely see a draw; I nearly always end up seeing 2p or better. If it is a hand I'm beating it tends to be another over pair. Obviously gross generalization, and clearly exploitable, and it's not to say I won't call/reraise with reads, or the 20 something in a hoodie, but just bitter experience.
Some good points but so many people overplay top pair, and a 9:30a beer drinker is a good candidate. If Jx will raise here, there are just so many possible combos of Jx it just dwarfs the sets, and, as you note, sometimes they'll show up with QQ also.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:08 PM   #13
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

I'd raise to 25 (or maybe 30) pre with that many limpers, I would also cbet pot on the flop, lots of wore hands can call. As played, I would just shove here.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:12 PM   #14
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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Originally Posted by Acquittal View Post
My thoughts on checking the flop were as follows. Villains don't have a lot of 2s and 4s, and they're probably betting their jacks for me. Because I have the A, they also don't have a lot of draws that I need to protect against.

It's hard to be called by less and I don't mind letting villains catch up. I didn't see betting accomplishing much, since there aren't a lot of second-best hands that can call. And it's live poker, so I'm not worried about balancing my cbet range.

But I see a lot of people are saying that I should cbet the flop. I'm open to that. What's the best reason to cbet here?
Maximizing against Jx is gonna be worth more than maximizing against K8 or whatever. Plus, sometimes K8 will float you with no plan, just because they don't believe you and/or don't like folding.

Cbetting your huge hands, your decent hands and some bluffs is just gonna be the most profitable approach overall. You start checking AA and you are playing more like the rec players. Playing like the rec players but with a little more knowledge is a recipe for barely beating the rake.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:38 PM   #15
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

All in. Win vs KJ. Also.. it's really funny to me that most of the posters on this forum remove so many flush draws because we block the nut flush draw. KQcc and a ton of other flush draws are loving this flop. We have 90 bbs to start the hand. Folding aces on this flop, this shallow, with the backdoor nut flush draw is rediculous. Way too exploitable for me.

Last edited by Redskins 47; 03-26-2017 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:41 PM   #16
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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All in. Win vs KJ. Also.. it's really funny to me that most of the posters on this forum remove so many flush draws because we block the nut flush draw. KQcc and a ton of other flush draws are loving this flop.
This. Its live, not online.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:11 PM   #17
sai1b0ats
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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Originally Posted by Redskins 47 View Post
All in. Win vs KJ. Also.. it's really funny to me that most of the posters on this forum remove so many flush draws because we block the nut flush draw. KQcc and a ton of other flush draws are loving this flop. We have 90 bbs to start the hand. Folding aces on this flop, this shallow, with the backdoor nut flush draw is rediculous. Way too exploitable for me.
The issue is more that many villains are not aggro at all with their draws. But I agree with you, never folding the rockets here.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:45 PM   #18
Redskins 47
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
The issue is more that many villains are not aggro at all with their draws. But I agree with you, never folding the rockets here.

It differs from card room to card room and table to table imo. I'd definitely be raising with with every JcXc hand here.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:48 PM   #19
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

I've stacked so many droolers with AA on Kxx boards, Qxx boards and Jxx boards. So many llsnl players think top pair good kicker is the nuts.

I've certainly run into sets as well but more often than not top pair or a draw. Never ever folding this shallow on a board where there's literally no two pair possibilities.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:18 AM   #20
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
Some good points but so many people overplay top pair, and a 9:30a beer drinker is a good candidate. If Jx will raise here, there are just so many possible combos of Jx it just dwarfs the sets, and, as you note, sometimes they'll show up with QQ also.
And just to be clear the beer drinking read may be good enough for me to make the call or shove.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:16 AM   #21
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

Just bet the flop, I feel like you're way overthinking that. You have the best hand a ton, just wager money and make them call it. Don't try to figure out what might call you on this board, leave that to them.

AP, jam and hope for the best. He might have a set, but he's drinking a beer at 9:30am. Not folding to that.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:33 PM   #22
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

I'd probably raise slightly more ($25) for an easier stack off situation postflop.

With an SPR of ~4, even though it is three ways, I'd probably just cbet a PSB to setup a turn shove (again, more comfortable stacking off here had we got in more preflop, but whatever at this point I guess). Any reason to why we checked?

As played, readless I probably hero fold. There's a flush draw out there, dude obviously doesn't want the other guy to hit it, and usually Jx ain't going to freak out like this. Raises on the flop are very rarely TP, no?

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:04 PM   #23
Acquittal
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Re: AA facing heat on the flop

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