I've encountered more often lately that tight players are limping and then just flat calling with JJ-AA and AK. Before it was limp jamming which I adjusted to and began folding my good pp's and AQ+ against them. However, I would like some advice on how to adjust to this playstyle. Have any of you noticed this happening more often or is it just my player pool? I have gotten absolutely crushed the last few weeks in hands like these because I do not have QQ+ in villains limp calling range. Is this just something that I will have to accept to losing money to this strategy at first, and then adjusting and taking note? Thanks

This just in, people severely misplay hands at LLSNL

PS: There's no way you're losing money to this strategy, and yes this is just your player pool, and I even doubt that; you've probably just seen an inordinate amount of this in a short amount of time which leads you to think that is a common thing

I've noticed the same thing in my games. Not much to worry about. Just stop getting crazy with TPTK type hands and you won't be getting stacked off by them.

The only way that you lose to such play (and its bad play by any standard) is if you are playing overly aggressively.

Whenever my Villains do this in my games I silently thank them for the free flop.

(Well, having already vpipped it's not actually free but it's free to continue to the flop thereafter. And that is specifically why it's -EV for the Villains. They could have won more in the pots they would have won, and they allow me to "get there" every so often when I would have folded to a reasonably size raise.

And they think they are "playing well".

It's not -EV to limp/call premiums it's just less EV than raising them.

You are going to lose to the top of their ranges butit is still bad strategy.

It is not a new strategy. Bobby Hoff in HOC talked about several players in the 1960s and 1970s who were successful using a similar strategy and Harrington pointed out that Johnny Chan would often limp/call aces.

There's no absolute rules in poker on the best way to play. At a table where people overvalue TP, don't limp with SC but will fold to a raise pf, limping aces would be a good way to go.

+1

This is definitely something I've seen a lot more in my games, and from what I've seen it has proven to be quite a good strategy so long as the expected result is either (a) HU against someone who could have easily raise/folded preflop and will often overvalue/bluff postflop or (b) as an early flatter there is a very good chance someone will 3bet to go after all the dead money.

My guess is more people flat QQ/AK (not to mention JJ/TT/AQ/etc/) than reraise in my game today, or at the very least the trend over the years has certainly been going more passive, and this has also been the case for AA/KK. It's also one of the reasons (among others) that I believe limping big pairs is often better than opening: because if our goal is to get in the money preflop/flop (which it often is with big pairs) it can be very difficult to do with an open raise (especially if one has a, er, nit image smiley face) if we're not getting 3bet a lot (whereas it will be trivial to do if the table is raisey and we can be the ones doing the 3betting).

As always, it depends (opponent, our image and style, stacks, rest of table, etc.), and everything isn't as cut/dry as everyone likes to make it out to be.

Still awaiting Ava's story conclusion on The Best, who, from what I understand, 3bets very little.

ETA: Lol, I actually limp/called with AA in my session last night. Simply a cooler situation in that I happened to be up against QQ (who I was only a 60/40 flip with on a very good flop for him). Still not convinced I played it right, but he was the nittiest other player at the table and aware of my image so he was definitely folding a lot of his range to a UTG limp/reraise from me. Course I also risked an A/K coming on the flop which would have killed my action. Any more dead money in the pot I would have reraised given the small stacks. It was my biggest win of the session, but also fully aware it was simply a cooler for the most part and there are arguments for and against it.

GcluelessNLnoobG

When I come across it on 1/2NL, generally they are an older WM doing it and will check/call to river (and surprisingly win the 7 way pot).

Mind you I know some poker rooms have a “Cracked Aces” promotion where you get paid if your Aces get cracked. Oneida for example, is $100. People end up limping with AA and hope they lose the hand. Hope you weren’t playing during one of those promotions

Occasionally I’ll limp with QQ/KK/AA, but it has to be the right circumstances to consider, but generally it’s with the purpose to limp/jam, not limp call.


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What I find this to usually be is just an adjustment by fish who want to play nearly every hand, so they recognize if they throw some AA in there with their limping strat people will be less inclined to raise them, so now they get to see all those other flops with their usual 60% range of garbage. Heck I've seen people do this at the micros running 90% vpip over 100 hands. Personally I dont think they really adjust postflop and start x/r bluffing or anything, so I'd just treat all their limps the same and value bet them until they raise the river or something.

No, and it sounds like a bad strategy.

For me, it's a bad strategy, but lately I've limped reraised with them to good effect. Except for yesterday when my KK lost to 9999 lol.

not new
some fish limp call because they are afraid to raise or don't know how much to raise so they don't.
some players who are aware will, as said in other posts above will do so to slow down someone who is aggressive .

most will post flop still play a check call mode
with one pair , so you can keep the pot small if feeling beat.
if they actually wake up and lead you can quickly fold as they got a monster.

what I've noticed is the regs will do this more often going for high hand promos , cracked aces etc......

Interestingly enough, I had this happen twice to me this weekend.

Lost my biggest pot of the weekend when KK overlimped, some more limpers, I raise QQ out-of-the-blinds just 65bbs deep, KK just flats (risky with players still behind) but it ends up HU and I stack off postflop on 8 high flop in SPR ~3 pot. I'm guessing if he limp/reraises I manage a hero fold, and I'm guessing if he opens I probably still lose my stack (although I'm not 100% sure, I'm nitty like that), plus his limp/call also risks a A/K high flop where I don't lose my stack (plus also brings more multiway into play which is a risk for him). Honestly can't decide if his play was optimal against me or not.

Another instance where KK overlimps the Button with just $150 (unlike first case which was an experienced player this guy was a noob), I raise TT large out of the BB, he just flats (closing the action). A high flop, he calls a lol small cbet, I then check/call a lol small turn bet when picking up an OESD on the turn, and he checks back river. Against me, his limp definitely got in more money preflop (easy fold for me to a noobish raise even if it is on the Button), and I'm guessing I get away from a limp/reraise (although I'd certainly have a difficult time with money in the pot and the fact that I can't put him on AA/KK on the Button, but I'm guessing I see enough QQ/JJ). Course he risks things limping around, but in the end was optimal preflop against me. Postflop he risked an A/K killing his action which it did, although on 9- high flops I was in insta stack off mode (so he got a little unlucky in that regards). Huge risk for him preflop, but again could argue for optimally played against me in this case.

GbombingintothenutsG

I saw this a lot 2-3 years ago, then it mostly stopped until last night. In the course of 1 dealer down...

KK limped, chk/call dry low flop, bombs A turn wtf??
KK and JJ limped same hand
AA limped
KK limped

I'm wondering if total fish poker magazine had an article about it recently.

I see fish donkbet a turned Ace with KK/QQ and stuff all the time, as if thats the card that helped them. I think what they're doing is trying to "see where theyre at". They hate the Ace but they also hate folding KK if you bet, so they just bet instead to see what you do.

When you have lots of young aggro guys raising lots of hands in position, you're going to have lots of older guys limp/calling with monsters and letting the young guys value town themselves. If youre playing LAG you need to adjust or these guys are actually playing correctly.

Yeah, it's very similar to the thoughts in the limping thread. What once could perhaps be considered horrible in some games can change to being not nearly as bad (or perhaps even good) as games / opponents evolve.

In both of these cases I mentioned, the opponents likely played optimally preflop against me in a vacuum. Course they're not just playing against me, and for every positive there is also an associated negative risk, so it's not clearcut either.

GcluelessNLnoobG

keep limping, fam.

I saw a massive hand where MP flatted EP raise with KK, MP2 and MP3 calls, Button 3b. MP with KK flats, MP2 calls, MP3 jams, everyone just starts shipping. MP2 is deep and calls because of odds (6:1) to win 5k 4-way pot.

River A, everyone mucks except KK to take it down. Lol

this is the funniest trend ever if it catches on, especially because it actually likely improves their game, albiet thru learning the wrong lesson. Cant remember what book said it, but some book said something to the effect of players who play a 30% VPIP, 0% PFR are way scarier than the standard fish who play a 30% VPIP with a 5% PFR.

not new, it's called being weak passive. I love when I see some of these guys scooping pots and someone asked "Why didn't you raise" they say "I didn't need to, he did all the raising and betting for me" hahaha

Completely true, but it does work against guys who are out of control with their aggression...ie: bad LAGs

I have also experienced this trend recently in 1-2 NLH. Both younger and older players have been doing this. They have been just flatting with QQ, KK, and AA. However, in all but two of the recent pots they have ended up loosing to a draw and complain about getting sucked out on. Do they not realize that an open is just that, an open saying I have a good hand does anyone want to play a pot?