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Old 10-10-2013, 04:32 AM   #1
n0npareil
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AA against hyper LAG

1/2

Hero (400): Card dead. Sat to the left of the hyper LAG and can't get any good opportunities against him. Only history together was he triple barreled me and I just c/c him down all the way with top pair and was good.

Villain 1(~700): Young asian guy. Raises 80% pre and very aggro post-flop. He will literally keep barreling every street with ATC.

Villain 2 (300): Young asian guy. Spewy pre, ABC stationy post flop. Just sat down 10 minutes ago.

5 handed

Pre:

Folds to V1 OTB and limps, Hero in SB with AA raises to $12, V2 in BB calls, V1 calls

Flop (36): 5 J 4

Hero bets $20, V2 calls, LAG 3! to $55, Hero calls, V2 calls

My plan was to basically take a bluff catching line here. V2 probably has Jx, PP like 66-TT, maybe FD but I hold the A

What range do we put V1 on?


Turn (201): 3s

Hero checks, V2 checks, LAG bets $90, Hero calls (?), V2 calls

I felt that I should've shoved in this spot and take it down. I just don't think I would get called by worst here. LAG capable of folding and stationy V will only call me with hands that beat me.. Thoughts?

River (471) Qd

Hero checks, V2 checks, LAG tanks and bets $100, Hero calls, V2 folds

LAG says I'm probably good, he's just got a pair.. so I flip my Aces.. he flips Q5o!

Dealer points out he actually has 2 pair..
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:50 AM   #2
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Reraise flop to 160 and shove turn. Why let him get there in position if he has a draw or is drawing to two pair?
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:50 AM   #3
filimaica
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Tough break there. You played the hand exactly as planned. And he luckboxed his 5-outer. Any non-5, non-Q river and you are winning a nice pot 88% of the time.

LAG's flop raising range ==> I am not best at ranging (learning), but I've got him on 44-55, J4s or J5s (suited, non-clubs), JT+, KX, QX, 76+. If he's semi-bluffing the flop on a draw, then he's not making a massive EV mistake by calling a 4! (IMO) so I am also calling.

The turn, however, I am strongly considering a c/r, to make his draws (if he has one) pay me off, and therefore hopefully make him make more of a mistake.

Overall, the way you played it seems most +EV, just a pain in the ass due to the outcome.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:53 AM   #4
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Considering the fact that V1 is willing to stack off with any Jx, this is a really easy re-raise on the flop. Make it $140 or so.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:21 AM   #5
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Must. Raise. Flop.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:12 AM   #6
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This line is suicide in a three way pot. Bad beat.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #7
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Re-raise flop. Shove turn.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:49 AM   #8
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Why 3bet flop when he is being aggro post flop and barrelling a wide range? If his bluff range is so strong its best to call and let him continue to bluff with his 5x.

If you 3bet, there are so many hands he's getting away from.

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Old 10-10-2013, 12:51 PM   #9
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
Why 3bet flop when he is being aggro post flop and barrelling a wide range? If his bluff range is so strong its best to call and let him continue to bluff with his 5x.

If you 3bet, there are so many hands he's getting away from.

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That's what I was thinking too. My strategy against this type of LAG is to basically play like a tight passive/station. Is there a more effective way of beating this style of play?
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:52 PM   #10
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Played way to passively against 2 Villains, re-raise Flop to set up the shove on Turn.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:39 PM   #11
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

I have only 2 problems with Hero's play.

1) First bet is too small on flop. I make it $40 all day.

2) Check/shove river.

Don't mind the calling station line here at all given villain descriptions.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:01 PM   #12
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At this depth, it's very hard to get stacks in with a basically check/calling line, given the single raise preflop and small raise on the flop, AND still be ahead. Yeah he's hyper LAG and barrels a lot, but I don't for a second believe that he misread his hand on the river. He's shutting down on the river if he misses in a 3way pot, guaranteed. Therefore, if we work backwards, I don't believe check/calling the river is a good line. Given our image, I also don't believe betting out is optimal either. Hence, we work back to the turn... we got a large, 2nd barrel out of him, and I contend this is almost the best we could hope for; I don't think he barrels the river unimproved very often given it's 3way, and I think letting 2 players draw vs us for cheap-ish is bad as well. So, I'm raising the turn, which most likely ends the hand (I'm not unhappy if it doesn't, but I'm not necessarily fistpumping either).

I think reraising flop is bad because it shuts out too much of his nearly ATC range without getting enough bets out of him first. And I think playing for 3 streets of check/call value, OOP in a 3way pot, is fantasyland. FWIW, from this hand only, I think Villain is more likely to be a good LAG than a bad one.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:07 PM   #13
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

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Originally Posted by dumbluck13 View Post
At this depth, it's very hard to get stacks in with a basically check/calling line, given the single raise preflop and small raise on the flop, AND still be ahead. Yeah he's hyper LAG and barrels a lot, but I don't for a second believe that he misread his hand on the river. He's shutting down on the river if he misses in a 3way pot, guaranteed. Therefore, if we work backwards, I don't believe check/calling the river is a good line. Given our image, I also don't believe betting out is optimal either. Hence, we work back to the turn... we got a large, 2nd barrel out of him, and I contend this is almost the best we could hope for; I don't think he barrels the river unimproved very often given it's 3way, and I think letting 2 players draw vs us for cheap-ish is bad as well. So, I'm raising the turn, which most likely ends the hand (I'm not unhappy if it doesn't, but I'm not necessarily fistpumping either).

I think reraising flop is bad because it shuts out too much of his nearly ATC range without getting enough bets out of him first. And I think playing for 3 streets of check/call value, OOP in a 3way pot, is fantasyland. FWIW, from this hand only, I think Villain is more likely to be a good LAG than a bad one.
Thanks. That's a great explanation.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:13 PM   #14
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Raise more pre...let's build a pot

Bet more on flop..3b flop...get it in.

If you go 15-18 pre they are calling. Assume pot $50...you bet 40 V1 calls, V2 raises to 110 we can easily get it in now.

As played c/s turn.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:16 PM   #15
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Gii otf
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:16 PM   #16
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbluck13 View Post

I think reraising flop is bad because it shuts out too much of his nearly ATC range without getting enough bets out of him first. And I think playing for 3 streets of check/call value, OOP in a 3way pot, is fantasyland. FWIW, from this hand only, I think Villain is more likely to be a good LAG than a bad one.
I don't disagree with the bolded though if we betsize more we can easily get it in on flop.

Villain is not a good LAG limping Q5o OTB at any level...lol. There is no good LAG ever that open limps this OTB
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:27 PM   #17
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I mean, it's a tricky hand, and hinges on a few things. If reraising the flop DOESN'T shut out a lot of his flop range (i.e. he bluff/semibluff jams a lot of hands or just gets stationy with draws), then I like that much better, obv. Or, if he actually does fire a river barrel unimproved quite often, then check/calling is better.

Honestly what we're missing here is more information. When we say he barrels a lot, it matters what the board textures are like, what the actual turn and river cards were when he double/triple barreled, etc. This type of info tells us if he's a thinking/creative LAG, or an aggro/spewtard/button-clicker LAG.

I don't think you played it bad, per se. I just don't think your line was optimal; I don't know if my suggestion is either, but it's more of a safer, in-a-vacuum type line vs described villain types without more specific history/dynamics/reads. I think you did underestimate the impact that having a 3rd player in the hand had though.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:17 PM   #18
n0npareil
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

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Originally Posted by dumbluck13 View Post
I mean, it's a tricky hand, and hinges on a few things. If reraising the flop DOESN'T shut out a lot of his flop range (i.e. he bluff/semibluff jams a lot of hands or just gets stationy with draws), then I like that much better, obv. Or, if he actually does fire a river barrel unimproved quite often, then check/calling is better.

Honestly what we're missing here is more information. When we say he barrels a lot, it matters what the board textures are like, what the actual turn and river cards were when he double/triple barreled, etc. This type of info tells us if he's a thinking/creative LAG, or an aggro/spewtard/button-clicker LAG.

I don't think you played it bad, per se. I just don't think your line was optimal; I don't know if my suggestion is either, but it's more of a safer, in-a-vacuum type line vs described villain types without more specific history/dynamics/reads. I think you did underestimate the impact that having a 3rd player in the hand had though.
I couldn't figure out if he knew what he was doing or if he's just using raw aggression. In our other hand, I had JTo and the flop went J 8 2 r. I c/c the flop, turn was another 8 and I c/c, river was a 9 and I c/c. He doesn't get stationy with draws either and most of the time he's semi-bluffing. I saw him fold 2 pair when someone played back at him. He shut down on monotone boards. So something tells me he's not that creative and can be spewing at certain spots.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:28 PM   #19
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

Other than the smallish flop bet, I think OP played the hand very well. I don't know why everyne is itching to get 200bb in OTF when villain is described as a hyperLAG who barrels ATC but "can fold" to aggression. Sure, it might be slightly +EV, but not as massively +EV as catching this idiot's bluffs. It sucks that the BB gets to draw cheaply, but you're ahead of his range so keeping him in isn't the worst thing in the world.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:30 PM   #20
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why is everyone going crazy/get it in on flop or turn.
He may be lag but he's not ******ed... he raise on flop could indicate a two pairs+ hands or a serious draw.
On turn 1.draw completed and he doesnt have much left behind... if we call the turn bet we might as well shove to get the spewy vilain in.
I would probably call river thinking im never good here.
The only thing we beat is a bluff and AJ. I dont get why everybody is like gii ... we have aces..not the nuts,.we only get called by better.

As played raise turn and dont feel too happy if you get a call from the lag.

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Old 10-10-2013, 03:33 PM   #21
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

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Originally Posted by n0npareil View Post
I couldn't figure out if he knew what he was doing or if he's just using raw aggression. In our other hand, I had JTo and the flop went J 8 2 r. I c/c the flop, turn was another 8 and I c/c, river was a 9 and I c/c. He doesn't get stationy with draws either and most of the time he's semi-bluffing. I saw him fold 2 pair when someone played back at him. He shut down on monotone boards. So something tells me he's not that creative and can be spewing at certain spots.
These guys are called "spots". They're the ones you're looking for at a table.

Sit on his right. Station him to death. Shove scary rivers when you miss. Got to the bank and deposit cash.
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:10 PM   #22
n0npareil
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
These guys are called "spots". They're the ones you're looking for at a table.

Sit on his right. Station him to death. Shove scary rivers when you miss. Got to the bank and deposit cash.
Shouldn't we sit on his left so we have position on him?
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:20 PM   #23
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Re: AA against hyper LAG

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Shouldn't we sit on his left so we have position on him?
You want to be the last one to act after he has acted.

Say you have a hand like T9s in EP but you know he's playing like 80% of hands.

You limp, he raises, gets a few callers, you call. You see a flop. You check, he bets, gets a couple callers and you can 2b (maybe shove) if you have enough equity, or just x/f if you miss the flop. This way, you pickup a bunch of dead money, and you benefit from "relative" position.

If you are one his left, you'll have to raise him to isolate in order to avoid players behind you from doing it to you. Even if you raise him to isolate, you may be faced by some donkey 3b'ing you.

If the table is passive then it probably doesn't matter all that much.
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