i think 3.5-4x is sufficiently large here, and i certainly wouldnt want to size smaller than that (with any part of our range) when 300bb deep and oop; i dont really think it makes sense to go any bigger than this unless you have some read though.

i dont think this is a great situation to flat a 3b w/ AA, but I also don't think its a great situation to 4b at all, and if we 4b KK+ both our 4b range and our cold call range are going to suck to play

i also agree that the reads here are very limited and not super helpful, and that people are interpreting them very differently- particularly wrt his 3b range in this spot, and thats where a lot of the argument is coming from. it would be helpful for those advocating 4b or flatting to give some idea of what they think his range looks like here, which will also help dictate what our flop play should look like (also would be nice to know what sort of range you think we are getting to the flop with here)

i find it pretty hard to believe that b/jam is gonna show a profit here, however that has a lot to do with what range he gets to the flop with, and then obviously what hes raising our lead with. i dont really like b/c either, but cant really see why b/jam would be better- what part of his raising range here is behind us and will call, or has enough equity that we care about shutting it out. also, cold 4b then b/jam this flop 300bbs deep vs a very solid TAG is absolutely not standard w/ AA. this flop is much better for his range than ours, which is one reason why c/c is better

so we have aces pf, and we're suddenly with our backs against the wall and no end to the misery in sight?

also the OP has been edited, but in the original OP I'm pretty sure there was a brief description of reads the op had on villain and the assumption that he was a solid tag was a bit of a stretch from what i can remember of it before it got edited. for whatever that's worth.

its less about the fact we happen to have aces right now and more about the fact that we are 300bb deep and oop. the number of hands we are going to want to continue with isnt really that big, so splitting that range into a cold call and a 4b is going to present some problems, not to say that it can't be profitably done. i think it is a relatively difficult proposition to come up with ranges that provide us enough board coverage to not get owned by a good player here, and im curious as to what people suggest. AA will always be a profitable hand for us to play in this spot, but having it in a cold call range might make it more profitable and might make other hands in that range more profitable to play as well.

this is all assuming this is against a good-very good TAG, and all of this changes as he gets worse. i think the problem is a bit more interesting if he's really good, but im also kind of curious about the additional info, and it might make this into a 4b b/jam flop (although it would have to really change things bc he has QQ/TT here a bunch still)

So, for those saying to bet because is 4 bet calling range is wider than we think, do you realize that a wider calling range in this instance is evidence for checking the flop? That means he has some weaker hands that won't stack off, but might call 1-2 bets. Of the two players, he's the one who has to fear draws the most since he has almost none in his range, so we're not overly concerned about those. We can't be all that happy when 3 bets go in in this spot so why not control the first one and add a couple of hands in his turn range that we can own. There's also the benefit of not getting screwed quite so hard by QQ. Just a thought.

did anyone stove a range yet? deep stacked 3b/calling from the btn is still a relatively wide range if the guy has some clue what he's doing imo, i can't see how it's been magically narrowed down to QQ/TT. when he pops the flop we can narrow his range somewhat but we're still favourite against a load of broadway sh*t that's drawing to the turn/river and semi-bluffing with hand equity and fold equity in position. I got 70% favourite for the aces when i stoved it vs. the range i came up with. what about everyone else?

What kind of range did you put villain at that gives us 70%? He would have to have a ton of FDs or AJ, AK bluffs etc for us to have that much? We have As so he can't have nut FD. And since our perceived range should be mainly KK+, hard to believe he would raise flop without a huge draw or a better made hand that often if ever. I could see him overplay Kk here but even then he's not that good then to raise KK here

Results?????

Don't post results yet. I want to see:

I agree that BTN's 3b/c range is going to be a lot wider, primarily because stacks are very deep and also because OP's 4b was on the small side. 70% still seems pretty wide, especially since we have A. Also, Hero bets barely more than half the pot OTF, which isn't exactly a small bet. If things were reversed and we were V holding AQ, raising this flop as a bluff with blockers to top set and AA wouldn't be that bad of a play if you believed V was capable of catching what you're throwing.

We have to be balanced (in before "we dont need to at 2/5. We do) and we are never 4betting to 250 here as a bluff. Villains illusion of having any fold equity is non existent due to our sizing. If we 4bet smaller we allow villain to play poker with us with a bigger range which allows for more mistakes, also allows villain to 5bet lighter.

Check/call flop as you dont have to protect Against any draws except AK and your range does not consist of many hands being comfortable to (or willing to) stack off 300bb deep. If villain checks back then bet turn / bet river.

Flatting is worse than any 4bet sizing unless initial raiser has tendencies to 4bet incredibly light.

My 2 cents

My narrowing of his range is a function of stakes an description. Solid tag doesn't mean he's with it enough to realize he should be flatting much wider on the button. It just means he's tight and aggressive. It tells me more that he's flatten a top heavy range as opposed to a more evenly distributed one. This is still LLSNL. A lot of the analysis here hinges on the assumption that he's thinking with us. If he's capable of that, then checking is clearly the play.

pretty much this for preflop. on the flop you can't flat this large bet. either fold or ship. it's only depends on your reads atm. villian's range looks like kk,qq,tt and some combo draw like j9 or kj which i don't think he does with this raise with those hands if he is real solid. he probably flats, rather than bloating the pot while knowing what you have approximately. he is alsa looking scared from fd. so only hand that we can beat is flatted kk preflop ip. if you think he has kk, ship the flop. otherwise fold. he has a set %90 here. and looks like 10's

I'm in fold on the flop camp.

This assumes Villain believes we're never 4betting to 250 here as a bluff, AND believes we might 4b smaller as a bluff. I just don't see why we'd think that about a random 2/5 TAG. More reads/info would be nice, but isn't he usually putting us on roughly KK+ either way?

his value range is probably limited to QQ and KK only and I'm not sure if he's going to bomb the flop with KK. I hate to give such tight ranges on people but sometimes they only have one hand.

His cold 3bet/call IP is a little bit tough to range because if he's a good player, he can have KJs in his cold 3bet button range, so I think you have to pretty much handicap the number of draws in his range at this point, the most likely one that he raises for value is KJ, but if he has KJ suited, he also has QTs.

so combinations are

4 KJs
3 QTs
3 QQ
6 KK

that is pre flop to flop

does he raise KK and does he have suited draws in his pre range? if no to those questions, it's probably a fold

also, the sizing pre is just a little on the small side and this is a board where it's tough to get value from worse and we are in a way WA WB, so I think I'd check the flop for pot control and future value

you can almost narrow this down to a fold at this point because KK can almost be eliminated or at least, with enough frequency to be eliminated. If he flatted KK pre, he's almost certainly not raising it post. I'm not sure about QT/KJ because if he's skilled, he is going to just flat those hands IP more often than cold 3bet, though he will cold 3bet some of the time, more often he will flat

he's also more likely to 3bet flat QQ and TT, in fact I will guess he 3bets QQ with very very high freq and TT >50% giving added weight to him having a pre-flop pocket pair, the only two of which he raises OTF with max freq is QQ and TT, so I think this is probably a fold

he's never bluffing now and we are behind most of his value range and only exploited some of the time vs KJ which is exceedingly rare

tough luck but just fold it

4bet to 175

and ya i like a check on the flop too