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AA 2/5 line check

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05-30-2018 , 03:36 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,283

Hi all,

2/5 MGM National Harbor. Hero is $800, V is $400. V opens UTG to $20, UTG+1 calls, hero in SB 3! $80, V1 calls. Pot $180.

Flop: Q-4-10r. Hero checks, V checks.

Turn: 3. Hero bets $75, V calls. Pot $330.

River: 8 (no flush). Hero bets $100, V calls.

Did I do anything wrong? Mainly wondering whether I missed value.

Thanks,
DT

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05-30-2018 , 03:39 PM

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

Bet the flop. Even though it is rainbow, V has plenty of Qx and Tx in his range so get value and charge hands like KJ and J9 to draw.

Rest is fine. But notice that if you bet the flop, you not only get more value there, but you can size turn and river bets bigger because of it and a hand like AQ or KQ will call.

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05-30-2018 , 03:52 PM

Shai Hulud

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,919

SPR is 2. I'm betting flop like 90 shove turn.

Could also bet/bet/shove on safe runouts with really small sizing. Like 60/100/160 (about 1/3 psb each street)

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05-30-2018 , 03:56 PM

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Flop seems fine as a range check.

If you’re going to range check, bet turn biggger and shove river. You lost a lot of value.

You can also 1/3 pot per street as well or bet flop/jam turn.

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05-30-2018 , 04:36 PM

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

I think betting and checking flop are fine. You don't provide any details about V, but unless he is particularly sticky and loose, we probably only get 2 streets here. I think I'm betting more than I'm checking on the flop, but would size a little bigger on the turn than you did ($100ish) if I had checked flop.

But all in all don't think this hand was horrendously played.

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05-30-2018 , 04:40 PM

HomelessPizza

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 599

Quote:

Originally Posted by shorn7

Very unlikely V opens hands like J9 or KJ utg and calls a 3b.

I think flop check is fine, but sizing up on turn and river gets you a few more BB's.

Assuming you have a tight image and V is tight passive, I don't see a lot of guys playing for their entire stack with TPgk. (you block AQ)

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05-30-2018 , 05:10 PM

djevans

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 5,045

It depends who was in the pot - but generally at MGM your 3bet was too small - I would of gone $100 pre - I doubt the player is a reg as they will usually top up to $1000.

If you check flop - not sure why you would do that - but you need to bet much bigger on the turn. Your hand looks like AK or JJ.

As played i'd just bomb river since he only has $400 and could get sticky with a hand like 99 or JJ since your hand looks like nothing.

Best line though would be to go $100 pre - $125 flop - shove turn.

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05-30-2018 , 05:55 PM

bigdaddycope

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 167

Checking flop is fine...with this SPR you only need 2 streets to get his stack in by the river.

Turn bet is fine as well if you're actually taking this line with bluffs to jam river it puts max pressure....but you have to jam river.

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05-30-2018 , 05:57 PM

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,700

Villain has $320 behind, pot is $180. Board is such that worse pays you off. Try to get stacks in.

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05-30-2018 , 08:02 PM

#10

Shai Hulud

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,919

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey913

I think betting and checking flop are fine. You don't provide any details about V, but unless he is particularly sticky and loose, we probably only get 2 streets here. I think I'm betting more than I'm checking on the flop, but would size a little bigger on the turn than you did ($100ish) if I had checked flop.

But all in all don't think this hand was horrendously played.

Well since we can GII quite easily in two streets, this isn't really a problem.

Though I totally disagree we can't bet three 1/3 psb and usually be ahead. The SPR is 2. AQ KQ QJ are not folding. KJ not folding until river.

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05-31-2018 , 10:31 AM

#11

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

So tell me again why we want to just randomly give V a free card by checking the flop? While I agree we only need two streets to get the $, giving up the initiative seems stupid to me. I mean with that logic, turn is a blank so why not check again?? Hell check the river too and just get to showdown.

Flop is and always will be the street where V's will give us the LEAST amount of credit for a big hand. So when we have a pure value hand with little chance to improve (like AA on this board), we should bet to realize that value.

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05-31-2018 , 06:47 PM

#12

russianbear13

banned

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 188

My first thought was, why are we not betting the flop? Do we not want to get value from top pair hands like AW, KQ, QJ?

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06-01-2018 , 01:02 AM

#13

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,283

Quote:

Originally Posted by russianbear13

My first thought was, why are we not betting the flop? Do we not want to get value from top pair hands like AW, KQ, QJ?

The benefit of checking flop is that we protect ourselves when we truly have air here (AK) or an underpair (JJ). V can’t assume correctly that we missed or are scared of the flop when we check AA or KK. It’s basically a trap. But I agree once we checked our hand on the flop bigger sizing makes sense because it looks bluffier.

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06-01-2018 , 08:21 AM

#14

mdelore

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,315

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

The benefit of checking flop is that we protect ourselves when we truly have air here (AK) or an underpair (JJ).

While I agree with this I think this flop smacks V's range so much we have to get value on the flop. As another poster said we are given least credit on flop so getting value now imo outweighs the balance thing by a lot. I am not so concerned with balancing a check range since as the 3bettor your cbet % should be extremely high.

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06-01-2018 , 10:31 AM

#15

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

The benefit of checking flop is that we protect ourselves when we truly have air here (AK) or an underpair (JJ). V can’t assume correctly that we missed or are scared of the flop when we check AA or KK. It’s basically a trap. But I agree once we checked our hand on the flop bigger sizing makes sense because it looks bluffier.

THis is fine at higher levels where V's actually think and react to range balancing but at 5/10 and below, this is rarely the case. I would have had to have played over 100 hours with these specific opponents to even consider that a reason to check. And OP did not mention any reads/familiarity with anyone.

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06-01-2018 , 07:25 PM

#16

Shai Hulud

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,919

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

Protecting our checking range is really not a concern in a 2/5 game in a pot with an SPR of 2.

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06-02-2018 , 12:47 AM

#17

Ishipit

enthusiast

Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 62

Why the heck you guys are concerned with protecting your checking range here is beyond me. This is a mandatory flop bet. All of your sizing is too small. 3b pre in the Sb should be minimum 4x with just one raiser, with a caller (especially when both are in ep) a 3b here should be 5x minimum oop.

I don’t mind a downbet on the flop on the dry board that flops your opponents range well while still behind your AA. Then jam turn.

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06-02-2018 , 12:54 AM

#18

oldsilver

MTTLivePro

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 5,941

90 pre, 110 flop, jam turn, ezy game.

size identically with AK for balance (unless V is utter calling station and GTO is a nonsense).

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06-02-2018 , 04:10 PM

#19

PokerPrince

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,814

As for pf sizing, I like 4x ip vs opener +1 caller; oop I prefer 5x so I'd make it $100 here.

I'm fine with the flop check but with such a small SPR I likely just bet/bet flop and turn.

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06-02-2018 , 06:15 PM

#20

russianbear13

banned

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

You do see how checking back flops like this every time you miss with AK or JJ is highly exploitable?

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