If we bet just $25 into $45 on the flop, and just $55 into $95 HU on the turn, that'll leave us with exactly a PSB left on the river. So I'm guessing we're betting another smallish bet of like $110 into $205 on the river, where we will have now gotten in 2/3 of our stack and if shoved on will be being asked to call $95 to win $520 (i.e. anyone feel committed yet?).

Again, the more moron filled your pool is, I guess just bet until raised (although I noticed here no one but me folded to the flop raise, so what's our plan exactly?). Otherwise, meh.

ETA: And yes, we will sometimes miss "max value" against certain hands (like AK). But that's not all the hands out there. Some hands we're drawing dead to on the flop and we lose less by not bombing away (especially if we're not folding, like no one else did on the flop). Some hands are drawing to a fairly slim 2-5 outs on this fairly drawless board and will fold like 100% of the time to the second stack committing barrel, and yet if we check a street they could pay off two streets (and yes, some of these hands will catch their 2-5 outer the 4% - 10% of the time and hold up). And sometimes a check will induce a bluff a small percentage of the time.

GimoG

@gg i guess its beating a dead horse with a lot of these conversations. but seems like getting value from bad $1/3 players on jxx or qxx or kxx rainbow boards >>>>>> caring about spr or being scared and pot controlling imho.

just curious GG - are there any boards besides Axx rainbow boards where you are going for value with AA and not worrying about spr?

im honestly asking, im not needling or being facetious

For me it all comes down to commitment. So yeah, if I got in a significant chunk of my stack preflop and feel committed with what will usually be just 2 postflop bets, by all means, I'm barrelling off. But if I got in a relatively small percentage of my stack which will require 3 streets of postflop betting to get in, I'm not nearly as happy to get my stack in (which betting and calling raises trivially leads to) unless I'm playing some pretty special opponents (especially with my nitty image, especially in multiway pots).

GcluelessNLnoobG

size up on the flop, 35$ at least, then when he raises to around 100$, call. If he checks the turn, which is a very weird line in my opinion, I would bet and size down to take back initiative in the hand. This kind of forces him to check the river to you with hands he'd like to showdown that don't have you beat, then you could bet the river for value. If he does call a turn bet and then shove the river I would be worried.

No, just no, you are not.

The real sentence should be "If you fold overpairs routinely to random flop raises, you are likely going to light many hours of EV on fire in all but the nittiest of games."

All I can say is that our experiences must be very different. I'm pretty sure if I folded TP to a flop raise in a multiway pot (when not feeling committed) 100% of the time that it wouldn't be too far off optimal in most games I've played. And those that don't are typically the biggest fish in the game.

GcluelessNLnoobG

If you start folding AA to a single raise on the flop on this board, you are asking to get absolutely abused. Think of all the hands you might open with and then put in a c-bet with. EP raises to 15 might look something like 88’s + , AQ+, AJs, KQs, and a few suited connectors for a little balance. You will likely want to c-bet most of your Kx, AA, some of your underpairs that need protection 99’s TT’s etc. some of your sets, probably all of your 88’s and less of your KK. And then some bluffs like part of your AQ AJs with back door draws etc. In other words, you are at the top of your range! Behind only KK and 88, which you won’t have a lot of and you may even slow play a lot of your KK. If you fold AA to a flop raise they can raise your bet with any two cards and print money. Must take a stand with this hand, also with AK imo and probably KQ.

this has been discussed many times on this forum. but the thing is - who are you getting abused by? all those sick $1/3 players who are balancing the raises with bluffs on K-high rainbow / Q-high rainbow / J-high rainbow?

if the said player is pretty nitty, im ok way overfolding on K-high rainbow boards. That being said, it doesn't mean im always folding AA because i've seen too many people spazz with AK on these types of boards. and btw i am pretty station-y compared to a lot of 2p2 players from what i have read.

but this thought process of like "think about al lthe hands you are opening and folding the top of your range and what hands do you have to call with" approach to $1/3 is very faulty IMO. it's not a terrible way to think, but particularly in $1/3 games, be very careful with this thought process imho

I agree that you don’t need to play optimally in these low stakes games, because as you said players aren’t balancing these spots (well), but sometimes that means over bluffing and not enough value. You are going to find occasional bluffs and kx that you are beating, how many times have you played against an aggressive opponent who just says to himself I don’t think he has a king I’m gonna bluff raise, or turns middle pair into a bluff. I am the kind of person who tends to induce that so I am ALWAYS calling with AA here. The fact is it happens, and the players more likely to do it are the ones who find check raises on this type of board texture in the first place, they will be the ones that abuse you not even because they assume you are folding aces, no one will try to bluff you off of that... I mean hes repping K8 88 and bottom set, but he could have suited 89 with backdoors other weird weak pairs that for some reason put you on AQ and don’t want you to catch up, Kx that wants to “know where it’s at”. Most 1/3 players will not approach the game the same way you do and you will find random raises that don’t make any sense to you. AA is simply way to strong to consider folding BARRING ANY READS, OMC check raises me fine I’ll lay it down and sleep fine. Also maybe your own image is playing a part here, maybe your the kind of player who never c-bets AQ, 99, TT, AJ. Maybe you always have a King here and your opponents know that, then I guess you can find easier folds, but you may want to consider applying more pressure on these board textures with weaker holdings.

Ok, he can also have K5, and 85, tilted villains can play those hands from the blinds, but 67 is definitely a possibility as well. We will be ahead a lot of the time, and when he does have two pair we can still outdraw him when the board pairs on the turn or river. I honestly can't consider folding AA here against a tilted villain, and I'm happy to be getting raised.

The check on the turn tells me i'm definitely ahead, and him shoving when the T hits tells me he probably check raised with KT and outdrew me, but I'm putting in a small bet on the turn and calling off after he checks the turn to me

Yikes

This is very wrong. Don't fold here without a specific read.

Are we sizing higher to narrow his range a bit more or just for value?

And I called river he mucked i felt he was tilted from the previous loss with AA himself.