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A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river?

09-03-2015 , 05:43 PM
Hi, I've never posted a hand on here but reading through here I see that there is a lot of good feedback and thought processes.

Its a 1/3 game, 2 limpers, I raise to 17$ with A10h, folds to SB who makes it $50. BB folds, first limper folds, 2nd limper calls. I call. All three of us have between $400-500 in play. I played at the table for about 2 hours, and I'm thinking SB only makes that raise with QQ+, moreso KK+. The limper who calls is a LAG who could have anything.
Flop comes Q77, two hearts. SB bets 50, limper call, I call. Turn is a 3h. SB bets 100, limper tanks and fold. I tank and call. River is a Q. SB tanks and checks. I tank and check. He turns over KK and my flush is good.

Should i bet the river there? Raise the turn? His range was so narrow imo that I felt queens full was a definite possibility but when the river pairs the Q that makes it unlikely he has quads. Should I bet for value? Is there anything that you would have done different on flop, turn or river? Any thoughts, opinions are welcome!
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote
09-04-2015 , 12:06 AM
I like the initial raise, but I would fold to the 3bet. Especially since you assigned your V such a narrow, premium range. If we were deeper, I wouldn't mind the call. But being approx 150BB deep isn't good enough.

Flop call is good. I'm good with either a flat or small raise on the turn. It depends on your V's general stickiness. If he has trouble folding big hands, I'll raise. If he's super MUBsy, flatting is good.

River blows. I'd probably check back.
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote
09-04-2015 , 12:11 AM
This is a pretty interesting spot I think. The problem with value-betting here is largely that your range crushes his since you can also easily have a Q or a 7 and it is very difficult for villain to have either. At the same time, it is really difficult for you to have any bluffs here. Given both of these, betting here puts you in a spot where you're folding out the hands you beat and only getting called by better.

At the same, if you're playing one of the typical 1/3 players who is not going to try to piece together your range and just go "Well I have Kings/Aces so I can't fold," then a sucker value bet of 1/3rd the pot is perfectly fine.

As far as everything else in the hand goes, I think the the turn is fine, especially if you're figuring villain has an over pair most of the time and you can still have Qx hands that he's beating. As played, I don't think flatting the turn is bad either, but it does mean you'll sometimes run into bad rivers that will kill your action.

EDIT: I also think you have to flat the 3bet. It's $33 more into a pot of $117. You have position and a hand that plays pretty well multiway.
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote
09-04-2015 , 01:00 AM
Yep the call preflop can be argued but you do have position and as stated above its another $33 into a pot of $117. I think you can be aggressive on the turn and raise it up maybe even the flop. Hard to put him on a 7 and you have a blocker so chances he has Aces is smaller. With the nut flush draw on the flop if you just flat call you lose a bit of value when ur flush hits the turn. Did he have the King of hearts? Because you could have probably stacked him on the turn. I think if he had Queens he would have bet the river so a value bet would have been good. Just in case your not a fan of the raise on the flop, if the turn doesn't bring u a flush card because your in position and he checks you can always check it back. This getting a free card
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote
09-04-2015 , 11:07 AM
Preflop for me depends on position, and player stacks/looseness/aggroness behind me. If we're in MP with a bunch of loose deep tricky stacks behind us, I'm not looking to bloat the pot OOP, so I'd be cool with an overlimp. The later position we are, the shorter / tighter / ABC the stacks are behind us, the more I'm raising (although at my table after 2 limpers I'm typically opening at least $20+ but it is table dependent).

Super trivial fold to the 3bet preflop. Our Ax is crushed by any Ax he has (so poor RIO), plus we have no implied odds against hands like KK when our A flops (where we'll probably just win one bet at most). We are getting okish 17+ implied odds against a face up hand, but we're really going to have to smack the flop in a special way (ex. TT) in order to get stacks in postflop.

Pretty small bet on the flop of $50 into $150 (is this a scared bet or a trapping bet, could be either), and with the limper calling we're getting 5:1. However, the board is already paired so it's possible we're drawing dead, and at the very least drawing to an 8outer instead of a 9outer. If he has a hand like JJ a raise will probably fold him out. Not convinced a raise here will fold an overpair, but we're doing well against KK and might have some small FE. Next time don't post results (i.e. Villains hand) cuz that can skew responses. I think there's good arguments for all 3 plays on the flop, but I probably take the inbetween route and just call.

By the turn, if we just call the pot will be $500 with us only having $200 - $300 left. We're pretty much committed. So the only question is whether to get the stacks in now or wait to the river. Waiting to the river risks a 4th flush card coming which could kill the action. But we do have position in order to get the chips in. I probably shove now.

As played on the river, I think we missed value by not shoving. Villain played his hand exactly like AA/KK the whole way, is he really getting tricky here checking quad QQ?

GcluelessNLnoobG
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote
09-04-2015 , 02:36 PM
Fold to the 3-bet pre

Flop fine

Why call on turn? Raise all-in! You hit your hand and the pot is big! He might even call w/ k even though he sees the flush.

You have to make a decision on the flop if you want to commit to the hand or not on a paired board. Do 1-3 players normally 3-bet to $50 with QQ....not many. You even said "SB only makes that raise with QQ+, moreso KK+"
Now if the limper stayed in it might be a closer decision, but he folded.

The river is nothing more than a scare card and you lost value. As would another or 7 (which kills your hand).

This is the number one reason never to slow play...not so people don't suck out but that cards come that the villian (and you) fear, killing the action.

No point in value betting on that river, how can he call? He's beats nothing but a bluff now.
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote
09-04-2015 , 11:08 PM
Thanks everyone for the responses! Great insight and thoughts! Next time I post a hand, I'll leave out the villian's hand as mentioned. It looks like the pre-flop call is questionable/okay. That there are several different ways to play the flop and turn. And that, considering the stakes and opposition, a river bet was probably needed, but checking back wasn't the worst thing in the world.

Thanks again!
A10s vs KK hand, value bet the river? Quote

      
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