Villain is typical OMC. Sits for hours and only plays KK/AA, never 3bets with anything else. Villain has a relatively short stack at $150, hero is at $300. SB villain 2, is a typical rec player.

Hero is in the BB with 9d7d.
UTG opens to $15.
Villain in the cutoff 3bets to $45.
Button calls.
SB calls.
Hero ???
UTG folds.

I opted to call, not sure if it was the right move. I was getting over 3:1 and have a hand that plays pretty well multiway. Mistake?

Flop: 9h8d6d Pot: $144

SB checks.
Hero checks.
Villain bets $65
Button folds.
SB folds.
Hero jams.
Villain calls.

Alright, so this is about as good as a flop gets for me and is the main point of this post. I'm pretty much positive that I should check/raise here 100% of the time, even when I know I'm facing AA or KK. Is this the right play to make?

pre is really bad this short/with UTG still to act again

flop plays itself - jam it in

in what universe are you getting 3:1 to call?
this is a crystal clear fold, there is no way to talk about it nicely, I´m not insulting you, but calling pre is just terrible. very terrible.

Easy, easy, easy fold pre. Not even sure what there is to think about. V has 50bb. We're facing a $45 bet OOP vs a range that has us crushed. In this spot, I'd want like 35:1 implied odds at a bare minimum to consider calling. Doesn't look like we have effective stacks of $1,600 so... only call if you like burning money.

Yeah, calling pre is a very big mistake.

Against main V, there's only 3x the bet back, not even nearly enough to play a speculative hand OOP. There's also a chance that SB or OR jam. Even though that's a very small chance, it still takes away some equity.

You're about 16% to hit 2P+ or a combo flush draw. Even if you won every time one of those happened, you'd be right around breakeven. But obviously you're not winning even nearly 100% of the time.

OTF, you're actually a big favorite over V's KK+ (about 64% equity). Jamming is clearly correct.

While you're developing your preflop hand selection skills and getting a better understanding of how big the implied odds have to be for various types of hands (SCs, S1Gs, suited aces, PP), I'd suggest playing really tight and just folding them all. As you get teh mad skillz, you can add them in. But until then, mistakes cost far more than the value of the successes.

Generally, to play a speculative hand OOP, we're looking for two things:

• Lots and lots of money behind so that we can get paid when we hit it big.
  
• Good reads on our opponents so that we know when we can play aggressively and maybe steal, how to manipulate them so that they pay us off, and when we're beat even if we hit so that we can avoid a huge loss.
  
• Closing the action so that we don't invest and then have to dump the hand when someone else reopens things.

I've seen various rules of thumb: Something like 15x for PP, something like 20 - 25x for SCs, and something like 30+x for S1Gs and suited aces. But those numbers will go up and down depending on the specifics of the situation (e.g. IP vs. OOP, better or worse opponents, opponent predictability, relative position in a multi-way pot, HU vs. multi-way)

Realistically you need to be about 4-500 effective to make this pre-flop call Imo....
Other villans stack sizes are very important here.... You can be playing a bigger effective pot quite often here:
On flop omc is obv gii almost always....making the pot in the flop: 135+omc's extra tonne, so pre we are calling 45 to win 235.... Implied odds of 5:1 roughly....but if we think one of the other villans is likely to gii relativley light vs the omc, ie: tpgk or something and will put in the 300 effective, that makes this 235+250 giving us about 11:1 implied odds on our pre-flop call.....now we are starting to get close to the numbers we need:
400 effective puts us at 235+350 giving about 13:1 500 puts us at around 16:1.... I would say we need around 14:1 to make it profitable long term to call here pre-flop and I want one of my non omc villans likely to put in a stack pretty light....

the whole hand is major spew but some people like to gamble that's why the games will always be good! I'm sure your rivered a 9 or a diamond to show everyone how wrong we are...

sorry, indeed you are getting over 3:1. didn´t see the cascade of cold callers, my mistake...

it´s still a very clear fold though, although mathematically it isn´t as horrible as I thought before.

This post generates two questions for me.

1.) Is there a method to calculate/estimate the preflop decision? I can see merits for both, but I would usually fold, especially since we aren't closing the action. If we were HU it would be a little better, since we are confident in assigning villain a very narrow range. Under the circumstance of being HU with a villain with an almost faceup range, do we assume we can get stacks in on favorable runouts and exploitatively fold when we miss the flop? Or is the assumption that we will get stacks in against villain too optimistic? (Caveat: on this hand Villain probably isn't deep enough for this logic to ever work out and we are not closing the action.)

2.) My instinct and consensus of the board is to check/jam the flop. That being said, villain's range is face-up and we are now closing the action, so can we ever just peel and fold/jam exploitatively? In my experience straight/flush cards will kill action, which is why I would jam. Is my thinking correct? (Again the caveat in this hand is that effective stacks are too small. This is more a question if effective stacks were much deeper.)

Fold pre. You should set up a buzzer on your phone to remind you to fold just in case you go blind during the hand. Seriously, pre is bad. The stack sizes are way too small, like 3x too small to even consider calling here.

As played, flop is a call. OMC didn't wait 3 hours to get AA and a raise in front, he's never ever folding. Raising has zero fold equity and while it's never wrong to jam it here as we are a small favorite, you get to realize full equity of the hand by calling.

Won't a T, 5, or kill action? (50/50 that villain has a diamond, which would guarantee a call if a diamond came.)

EDIT: I'm speaking hypothetically if villain had more behind.

he only has $45 behind after he cbets the flop.

putting in money on the flop is probably always making us money.

pre-flop is probably always losing us money.

OP, as a homework assignment, I want you to find what are the odds that you'll flop 2 pair or better with 97s. One reason you want to play this hand is that he is never folding so you'll get his stack if you can beat AA or KK. The only question is how often will that happen on the flop.

From there, you can decide whether you made a good call or not.

Hint, you aren't 3:1 to hit it.

It depends. The pot size doesn't match the action.

If the pot-size is correct then the OP wasn't getting 3-1.

Hand looks pretty standard and as played its good

Don't love the preflop call but its fine in this specific situation

Flop jam is standard. Probably decently +EV. Pre flop is God awful.

Pre is terrible. It's so bad I had to stop and read it again. The flop is obvious - as was preflop.

Nope

+1 to nope. Way too many words in this thread.

This is why OMCs sit around and wait for AA and KK so we can get it in against 97 suited then complain when you suck out.

'How the hell do you call with that trash and always hit?'

Chips!

what if we had position on Villain? Let's say we were in the Button and same action happened PF. Should we also fold?

Sure are a lot of posts in this thread.

obviously yes. if your goal is money. if you play 4 the lolz, call.

why would position matter if we're an 80/20 dog with no implied odds?