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Old 08-27-2016, 01:05 AM   #1
winadil
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99 in EP super deep

2/5

stacks
hero 1600
V1 1200
V2 600
other plays any were from 100-700

reads
hero- seen as LAG, been on a little heater since sitting at table doubling up thought V1 (hero AKdd vs V1 TT all in preflop) then taking the rest of his stack next hand (hero's AA vs V1 TT) has played a lot with everyone at the table as is the only regular game in town
V1 - rolled in drunk, is semi decent not a fish but not a shark either, loves calling wide pre with just about anything if the price is right, doenst mind betting draws or putting betting when he thinks he is ahead
V2 - very LAG but loves to trap

overall the game is pretty wild, lots of straddles, people are calling with ATC if there is value in there minds

The hand

hero is MP1 raises to 20 with 99 (this is my raise for my whole range)
V2 to my right calls
V1 in the Co calls
Button calls
both blinds call

POT 120

FLOP 223

short-stack shove for 85 (this can be just about anything here but leaning towards a 3x or flush or straight draws)
Hero ????
I feel like calling is the best option here but I am really in a tough spot. There is a chance that one of the players behind me might have 2x, Folding just seems too weak given the reads on donk shove from the shortstack but raising just seem like burning money as flush draws might be calling and I will be OOP for the whole hand and cant really get a read on where I am at in the hand
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Old 08-27-2016, 01:39 AM   #2
johnnyBuz
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Call. No point in raising. You very well may get raised out by Axs but **** happens. You're not really that deep here btw but it goes without saying you don't want to stack off 240 BB's vs. V1 unimproved.
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Old 08-27-2016, 03:01 AM   #3
PFunkaliscious
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

no no no. why would you think that calling is your best option?

make it 310 straight.

and you are not super deep. you are not even deep. this is a plain jane pre flop spot where you are repping QQ , even though you have 99. and you just want to take down the dead money.

if you flatted this flop bet, nothing but disaster awaits you.
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Old 08-27-2016, 04:53 AM   #4
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

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Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
no no no. why would you think that calling is your best option?

make it 310 straight.

and you are not super deep. you are not even deep. this is a plain jane pre flop spot where you are repping QQ , even though you have 99. and you just want to take down the dead money.

if you flatted this flop bet, nothing but disaster awaits you.
And turning our hand into a bluff that is marginally better than our actual hand and raise/folding is a better option?

It's impossible to advocate for a raise when you don't even know what the raise is supposed to accomplish given the number of unknown variables in this hand.

Flop is a super standard call.
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Old 08-27-2016, 08:14 AM   #5
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

So it's six way to the flop. Not impossible you face a 2 somewhere but not my main concern.

Mostly I'd be worried about FDs with overcards to my 99 and QQ-TT. The FD+overs have a ton of equity, they have position, one has you covered - it isn't a nice spot.

On the whole I think it comes down to raise to isolate short stack or fold.

If we raise to 200 that makes it a 2 to 1 call for anyone behind you. That may be too big for anyone but deep stacked V1 to call because they fear their K, Q, J, T high FDs don't have any pair outs and bare flush draw is too low equity to call on a paired board where hero could have a boat (unlikely but LAG hero could raise 33 in MP surely?). If they call and miss their flush on turn hero looks likely to bet again so they're real odds to draw to a flush over two streets are prohibitively expensive: calling 500 to win 700 effectively.

I'm happy to chicken out and fold but if I continue I mini raise it and then shut down if I get called behind and the flush comes in or T+ falls. I think it is even more likely you end up folding later (maybe always folding later!) if you just call 85 so I think 200 is a reasonable outlay for a an actual shot at winning a 200 pot. If it succeeds in folding all other players then you get 115 back and maybe a 75% chance to win the rest of the pot off the short stack. I don't know how to work out how often it needs to fold everyone though...
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Old 08-27-2016, 08:18 AM   #6
HawkesDave
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Anyone with two diamonds would have two overs and likely aren't going anywhere regardless of what you do. I think I'd call and then push the turn really hard on any non-ace/diamond.
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Old 08-27-2016, 09:02 AM   #7
rockville9
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

You have to raise. Flatting shows weakness, as the odds of you having a monster are unlikely, since I'm not sure A2s is in your opening range. That leaves AK and 33 that would smash this flop. An overpair is your most likely holding. You need to raise to chase out unpaired, overcards hands, at least to make it expensive for them.

Only a non-diamond 6-8 doesn't make you cringe against 4 opponents. Against 1 other player, you can "meh" an overcard. The 4 or 5 gives random A holdings a wheel draw, but that's unlikely to add anything to V's thinking, except add a small bit of equity. So you really only like 20% of turns in a multiway pot. (11/47 including the other two 9s)

If you get called in one place, you can probably get to showdown, but if V1 gets frisky, you might have to stack off with 2nd pair. Say you call, there would be about $270 in the pot, if V1 puts in a raise to $300ish, you would have to ask what he could have that smashes the flop, and its a little more likely for him than it is for you to have A2s (but not much). But really, if V1 re-raises, I'd be tempted to put him on a bluff. Thus, raising helps you make V1 make a mistake, while calling prevents it. Even if V1 puts you on 55-TT, its very unlikely for him to have you beat.

Also, you started the hand with 300bb, which barely considered "super deep". Is this a $500max buyin game?
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Old 08-27-2016, 09:38 AM   #8
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Whether you call or raise, if anyone else comes in behind you, you are going to hate the spot you are in on the turn even more than you hate this spot no matter what the turn card is (unless its a 9). Call me a wuss but this is why I dont raise 99 in EP with several deepish stacks. You'll be in a similar spot every time because the deeper everyone is, the more callers you will get every time.
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Old 08-27-2016, 09:47 AM   #9
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Call. Eventhough you can potentially get raised behind you as a bluff/semi bluff you're not getting explotied like that enough to iso the short stack. Looks like we have an overpair if we flat and people won't expect us to fold to a raise. I'd just fold if we get raised after we flat.
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:14 AM   #10
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

I am calling here to evaluate and I really do not see the benefit to building a side pot on the flop.

When pots are protected, villains are more likely to play hands face up.

If they call behind with a FD and the turn is a blank-- they actually should be checking back to try to get value from Hero when they do complete flush/ hit pair on river.
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:19 AM   #11
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Whether you call or raise, if anyone else comes in behind you, you are going to hate the spot you are in on the turn even more than you hate this spot no matter what the turn card is (unless its a 9). Call me a wuss but this is why I dont raise 99 in EP with several deepish stacks. You'll be in a similar spot every time because the deeper everyone is, the more callers you will get every time.
Agree with Mike here. I would rather try to get value from 99 later in the hand in smaller pots-- than build a pot in EP and find myself in awkward spots in bloated pots early on in a hand.
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:40 AM   #12
Ragequit99
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

If we call the pot becomes $290 and anyone behind us with a FD with one over (12 outs) is getting better than 3 to 1 pot odds for a draw that has a bit more than 25% chance to out draw us on the the turn (but 50% equity vs our 99 over two streets). Calling allows anyone behind with a FD and over or two to play perfect by just calling. That can't be good.

However, I do take daveMASS' point that anyone on a draw will not want to force us out of the pot because they'll want a chance of getting value if they hit and therefore we shouldn't be afraid of villains bluffing us later. This implies we should fold to any significant bet behind us on flop or turn if we don't bet the turn ourselves.

The problem for us is if we face a pair 88-44 or even 3X behind us. A player with a worse pair than ours may conclude that we are drawing and this would cause them to bet or raise in order to get us to fold our equity and give them a clear shot at the short stack and our call.

We won't know if such a bet or raise is from a pair we beat or 2X or QQ-TT. We'll likely end up folding and often it will be a mistake.

Of course we may be facing a lower pair AND a combo draw...
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Old 08-27-2016, 09:22 PM   #13
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Cawl
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Old 08-28-2016, 08:06 AM   #14
Ragequit99
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Cawling does sound better than calling. What's the difference in EV?
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Old 08-28-2016, 10:11 AM   #15
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

calling does not show weakness.

call and keep our range super wide.

If you have a set of 3's or 22 are you ever raising?

If you have AA are you ever raising?

I can't think of 1 hand that should raise here. It honestly accomplishes nothing besides the very slim chance you fold out TT and possibly JJ.
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Old 08-28-2016, 04:34 PM   #16
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Raising can fold out diamond draws as well but we don't need to raise these guys out of the pot. The $85 shove keeps the pot protected so we can just call and not worry about getting shoved over the top from a draw. Only way anyone is raising is with trips+ so we can get out the hand for the cheapest amount.

Call.
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Old 08-29-2016, 07:55 AM   #17
Ragequit99
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

It is probably ok to fold call or raise. I can't see huge problems with the reasoning for any option so either I lack experience in this type of spot or its marginal whichever way you play it.
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Old 08-30-2016, 11:37 PM   #18
winadil
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

I ended up just calling, v2 just calls then v1 raises to 285.
I elect to fold just because his range is either flush draws or 2x here a lot of the time (there is the possibility that he raises with air but didn't really feel like it)
I was leaning more towards to 2x here.
I also felt that give his bet size that we are going to facing a big bet on the turn and for stacks on the river.
I ended up folding as I just didn't know where I am at in the hand as there was still the v2 behind me
I do like the raise from him from his point of view as it puts me in a really tough spot.
V2 folded as well.
The short stacked shows Q3 and V1 had 88 and the 88 holds up
After the hand I thought to myself what I would of done if I had AA/KK in the hand and I couldn't really find a good answer

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Old 08-31-2016, 12:53 AM   #19
ibelieveyouoweme$80k
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
calling does not show weakness.

call and keep our range super wide.

If you have a set of 3's or 22 are you ever raising?

If you have AA are you ever raising?

I can't think of 1 hand that should raise here. It honestly accomplishes nothing besides the very slim chance you fold out TT and possibly JJ.
The problem is we don't have any of those hands.

If we had 33 or 22, we wouldn't care.

If we had AA, we wouldn't want to fold out TT or JJ, now would we?

And, yes, if we had those hands we might raise to get value from the flush draws which will call more than $85.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winadil View Post
I ended up just calling, v2 just calls then v1 raises to 285.
I elect to fold just because his range is either flush draws or 2x here a lot of the time (there is the possibility that he raises with air but didn't really feel like it)
I was leaning more towards to 2x here.
I also felt that give his bet size that we are going to facing a big bet on the turn and for stacks on the river.
I ended up folding as I just didn't know where I am at in the hand as there was still the v2 behind me
I do like the raise from him from his point of view as it puts me in a really tough spot.
V2 folded as well.
The short stacked shows Q3 and V1 had 88 and the 88 holds up
After the hand I thought to myself what I would of done if I had AA/KK in the hand and I couldn't really find a good answer

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If he showed 10s would you be patting yourself on the back for the right fold?
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Old 08-31-2016, 01:17 AM   #20
johnnyBuz
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

So he raised with the bottom of his value range and just so happened to run into the bottom of your value range that was ever so slightly better. If you had AA/KK you would call because his semi-bluffs have significantly less equity versus you since he can't out-pair you.

99 is just not strong enough to do much of anything. If somebody has AT-AK they are going to raise anyway and put you in a tough spot. You will be a slight dog to their semi bluff range and greater than a 9:1 dog to their value range of sets.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:29 AM   #21
DaveduFresne
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

I'd say that 99 is probably the hand that I've lost more money on than any other in live poker. The times I seems to make money on it are when I flop a set or when I'm against a shortstack and its relative value goes up.

Since I lose so much on this hand take it with a grain of salt, but in that spot I'd probably min raise the all in. I'd be ready to fold if one of the bigger stacks raised me though. I sometimes wonder if its worth raising pre at all with 9s.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:34 AM   #22
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

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Originally Posted by DaveduFresne View Post
I'd say that 99 is probably the hand that I've lost more money on than any other in live poker. The times I seems to make money on it are when I flop a set or when I'm against a shortstack and its relative value goes up.

Since I lose so much on this hand take it with a grain of salt, but in that spot I'd probably min raise the all in. I'd be ready to fold if one of the bigger stacks raised me though. I sometimes wonder if its worth raising pre at all with 9s.
Do you raise with 8s? 7s? 10s? Js?

Where do you stop and start and decide, 'I should raise this hand?'

99 is a top 10 hand.

Raise and play poker.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:54 AM   #23
DaveduFresne
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

I'll raise anything that I would call, but a hand like 9s flops an overcard so frequently and even when it doesn't you'll get people in there with 10s or Jacks that they were afraid to reraise with, but on a safe flop they feel more confident to raise you.

All I was trying to express to the OP was playing 9s strongly has been a money leak, but I would min raise in that spot because he's probably got the best hand, and I would expect the rest of the players will fold most of the time.
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Old 08-31-2016, 08:02 AM   #24
mtagliaf
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

it's a tough spot because a raise isn't for value or bluff, but it does potentially clear out many overcards, so it works to take down dead money. But it also escalates the pot with our small pot hand.
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Old 08-31-2016, 08:41 AM   #25
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Re: 99 in EP super deep

I think everyone is overthinking this spot. We raised and got a great flop for our hand, and a short stack shoved. 99 is nothing at all like AA here, it's very vulnerable but also very likely the best hand right now. If we are just calling wouldn't that possibly be for deception, and then why did we fold.
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