Hi all,

1/3 MGM MD. I am playing $130. One limper MP and I limp 88 in SB. BB raises to $25, and we both call. Pot $76. BB is effective stack of around $95.

Flop: 10c-8c-Kc.

Hero?

Thanks,
DT

PF call is terrible with effective stack sizes. Either fold or put in a raise yourself.

As played I like a check/shove. If flop checks through and turn is non-club then bet/call $50ish.

Check/raise shove

Villains have a bunch of of hands that we crush that will sometimes bet but will fold if we lead out.

For example, BB has a lot of AQo,AJo in his range as well as well as QQ,JJ with no club. Those hands might cbet so we don't want to scare those hands by leading out.

And if you lead out with a tiny bet there is a good chance that will confuse them, freeze the action and they'll just call and draw to flush.

Even though we're relatively short with only 43bbs, I'm ok with the preflop limp. Raising is also fine, and the more straightforward the limper the more I'd lean to raising even though we'll be OOP.

We can't call off 1/6 of our stack preflop. We're too short to setmine, and being OOP to both opponents with a hand that flops horrible a lot of the time is really meh. I think this is a raise vs fold situation. If we're raising, just shove with all this dead money and smallish stacks. Against tighter ABC opponents who raise out-of-the-blinds (albeit with only 1 limper and a SB completer) I'd mostly fold. Against anyone who raises light, especially against a couple of weak looking players (i.e. a big reason why limping here is fine), I'd mostly shove.

As played, I'd probably check/shove the flop, hoping to trap both players with stack committing money.

GcluelessNLnoobG

gobbledygeek, yeah pf the limp isn't horrible, it's calling the $25 raise that is.

Adapted from another response I provided recently:

OP: The main question you should be asking yourself is "is it profitable long term to be calling this large raise pre-flop with 88?"

A lot of people would argue that you should not call a large raise with a medium pocket pair pre-flop unless you can expect to win between 10 times and 20 times the size of the amount it cost you to call. I actually think the number is somewhere around 14.

In this particular case, the size of effective stacks was 95 and the size of your call was 22 so the most you could possibly expect to win against the preflop raiser when you hit your set is 95/22 = 4.31 times the size of your initial call.

Here are a couple of links discussing that concept:

https://www.cardschat.com/set-mining-poker.php

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...g+applied+odds

Think everyone covered the bad pre flop play. Personally I would just ship the flop. This is a good spot for an over bet jam.

I jammed and got snapped off by the initial raiser who flopped a set of 10s.

I don't think you're purely set mining pre though.

Post flop you have really good position because the raiser will be first to act facing 2. So you might sometimes get it when, say an ace flops and it goes check check.

Obv when its lower cards you often have the best hand and you are in front of the other limp callers range.

Maybe it's still a fold but I don't mind it if you have some confidence in your abilities post in this spot.

ES2, you need to take a close look at the stack sizes.

A little bit of Phil Helmuth's white magic post-flop soul-reading is not going to help us here.

Stacks are just not deep enough.

After his 7bb raise to 25% of effective stacks, there will be 76 in the pot and 75 in BB villain's stack. He should be jamming 100% of flops.

BB is not risking $22 (close to a quarter a of his stack) to pick up $6 from the limpers. In a vacuum, his range looks like AQ+/77+.

If you think 88 is ahead of his range, you should be back/raise jamming this to give yourself a chance of pushing out the MP limper so that you and BB can take a $190 flip + $25 in dead money overlay.

On the flop there is nothing you can do about this.

You're not deep enough to get away from a set over set situation on the flop imo.

I took out 77. You're 35% against ak aq 99+ maybe he is stealing sometimes. Or has aj or kq You got position and some extra money.

If ak type hands will give up on missed flops it might be better to not go all in pre. But it might be ok to do so.

As I said, fold could well be best. But we aren't just set mining. It's a fuzzy spot. At least to me.

Also I don't think you have to be Phil H to sometimes tell that the pfr doesn't like the flop.

Oops. I misread op. In sb I think a call is worse.

He is almost never doing this to steal $6.

Assuming we can get the MP limper to fold, the pot odds for a back raise shove are 92/215 = 43%

I'm not a fan of open jamming here. This loses a Villain cbet if he's whiffed (which he might often do just 3ways), plus we're much more likely to get other guys money in the pot with him facing just one bet (i.e. the raiser's cbet) versus facing a shove and a call.

This is a good flop to open jam a very good draw (adding some FE to our hand equity), imo.

GcluelesssetfloppingnoobG

After you flop the set be upset you aren't deeper.

After villain rolls over a higher set be excited you are so shallow

I agree w most others that call pre is bad, and on the flop crai >> open shove


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk